Troops spying on one another

[Crossramwedge]

Recently we had a scout attend a Function where an information booth on scouting was primarily to be manned by boys/adults from two troops. Our troop showed up with boys and Adults. The other troop showed up with adults only and no boys. They are 3 times bigger than us.

 

One of the leaders from the other troop started talking to one of our boys and told him how many "Eagles" they have had, how smoothly everything runs and told him about all the camp outs and adventures this troop does. Now that boy wants to go visit that troop supposedly under the auspices of seeing how that troop is ran and to glean from them things that may help our troop grow. (Our Troop is already known as one of the most active troops in the area.) The only thing they may have over us is "High Adventure' trips. They happen to be more well funded than us and can do those type of adventures more frequently than us. They are a known "Eagle" factory and are definitely not boy led.The adults have far to much input into what the boys do. They have 38 boys and 80 adult leaders.

 

This young man approached our SM and got his blessing to do this. The SPL was not approached and when he was told about it he did not like it, But feels since the SM said it was OK he can not do anything about it. He did ask the boy not to do it and the boy is going to go anyway. The young man in question also sent out an e-mail stateing that he would be gone for a month and that when he came back he would get together with the SM and SPL and then e-mail everybody what he learned at the other meeting. He is our troop scribe and tends to want to run things. He is strong headed.

 

Here is the crux. The other main leaders in the troop the main ASM, the SPL and the CC, who happens to be me, do not feel that this is something our troop needs right now. If the young man wants to visit the other troop on his own then so be it. He can do that. If he then comes back and wants to share with us his experiences with the other troop, thats ok. But him going for the explicit purpose of "Spying" is not Scout like.

 

Can somebody tell me the authority that a scribe has and how far he can go when he sends out information? How much power as CC/COR do I have in this type of situation?Do I have the authority to tell the young man that in no way do we as a troop condone him "Spying" and in no way, shape or form is he to go there for that purpose. How about the SPL? Can he over rule the SM and tell him he is going of his own accord and does not have the backing of the troop to do this? Any words of Wisdom? The SM is a good man, I just think that he did not think this out. If you found out a Scout was 'Spying" on your troop, what would you think?

 

(This message has been edited by crossramwedge)(This message has been edited by crossramwedge)

[eghiglie]

My 2 cents (for the little its worth) is to let him go, explore and report back, boys are still trying to figure out what they want to be.

 

I wouldn't even call it spying, sounds like the leader from the other troop found a willing listener and gave him some ear candy. The boy responded.

 

If the boy is mature enough he will see the negatives for himself.

 

[John-in-KC]

H Roe Bartle, Founding Chief Lone Bear in the Tribe of Mic-o-Say, Scout Executive of the Kansas City (MO) Area Council from 1929 to 1952, founder of study of Humanics, and Mayor of Kansas City, Missouri once said of Boy Scouting:

 

"If you give them great program, they will come."

 

If your Troop has an excellent program, you have nothing to be concerned about. If not, you may experience that wonderful gift called feedback. Carefully consider what this young man says, especially if he decides to transfer out.

 

Note I didn't say change anything. Use his departing Scoutmaster Conference and BOR (I trust you will give him one if he leaves) to see where potential weaknesses in your own Troop are, as well as strengths. Then, act as appropriate.

[Crew21_Adv]

Spying?

 

If I found out a Scout was Spying on my troop.. I would fell honored. My troop must be doing something good, like a model "flagship" troop, for a Scout to want to watch us and take our program back to his original troop.

 

I would hope that any other Scout leader or SPL would feel the same, ready to show off what their troop can do.

 

More Scouts should Spy on NYLT and more adult leader should Spy on Roundtable and Wood Badge.

 

 

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

[Beavah]

Yah, what Crew21 said, eh?

 

If a lad from another troop wants to come visit, it isn't spying, it's an invitation. I encourage troops to invite other scouters, other boys, share information about good campouts, high adventure trips, resources, whatever.

 

One of da least productive, stupidest adult things in Scoutin' is this notion of competition with other troops that leads to secrecy. Bah! It's 6-year-old stuff. IMO adults that immature shouldn't be in the program. We're in a community of folks dedicated to helpin' boys, and we should have open doors and share anything we can with each other. It's great for everybody if da troop down the road gets stronger.

 

So let your lad go. Call da other troop and ask if yeh can send an ASM and the SPL to learn stuff, too. Invite their SPL and Troop Scribe and an ASM to come visit your troop as an exchange. Go visit their committee meeting with a friend, and invite their CC and treasurer to come visit yours. Learn about their high adventure program and how to develop strong funding, let them learn about your youth leadership style.

 

That way everyone gets better at helpin' kids.

 

A Scout is Helpful and Friendly, eh?

 

Beavah

 

[ntrog8r]

>This young man approached our SM and got his blessing to do this. The SPL was not approached and when he was told about it he did not like it, But feels since the SM said it was OK he can not do anything about it.<

Im not sure Im tracking why he needs ANYones permission or backing to visit any troop, or any other organization.

>The young man in question also sent out an e-mail stateing that he would be gone for a month and that when he came back he would get together with the SM and SPL and then e-mail everybody what he learned at the other meeting.<

So, assuming the best, he wants to share what he learns this is a great thing. Assuming the worse, he wants to share what he learns - but for the wrong reason? What is the fear here that he will like the other Troop better and pull other Scouts out with him? Thats a risk at every Camporee, Summer Camp, etc. where Scouts can see and decide for themselves if they like the way another Troop operates better.

>Here is the crux. The other main leaders in the troop the main ASM, the SPL and the CC, who happens to be me, do not feel that this is something our troop needs right now. <

What does this mean not something our Troop needs right now? Is there a problem within the Troop, is something else going on?

>If he then comes back and wants to share with us his experiences with the other troop, thats ok. But him going for the explicit purpose of "Spying" is not Scout like. <

When did it change from wanting to share with us his experiences to him going for the explicit purpose of "Spying"? I missed the transition.

 

>The SM is a good man, I just think that he did not think this out.<

Why do you think that? Have you spoken to the SM? What has he said about it?

> If you found out a Scout was 'Spying" on your troop, what would you think? <

Im still not sure what spying means in this context. Weve had Scouts from other units come to our meetings. Ive had Scouts visit other units. My own son and his best friend in the Troop visited other Troops a couple of times. Please dont think Im trying to say you dont have a valid concern Im just not sure where your concern is coming from, i.e. why is the Scribe a spy instead of a Scout who wants to see another Troop.

 

[oldisnewagain1]

Lets say for the moment that this boy goes to the other troop and finds that he likes something that troop is doing. He comes back to your troop and suggests some things that are working for the other troop. Is this such a bad thing? The PLC could either accept the recommendations or not, right? Is it possible that the suggestions, along with the program already in place, could make your troop better?

 

There are times I see things at trainings, roundtables, camproees, or at other councils that I bring back to the troop. Not every idea is accepted but some are tried (insert Start, Stop, Continue here).

 

I have had boys from other troops come to visit us and I don't see it as spying, in fact I would hope some of our methods go back to other troops to make them better.

 

 

 

 

[scoutingagain]

It's not spying if you tell the troop your scout is going to visit he's coming to observe the unit so that he might bring back some ideas to improve your program. And as noted above, I would be honored is a scout approached the unit I serve with such a request.

 

There is no reason to make this some kind of clandestine activity.

 

SA

[Buffalo Skipper]

In another thread, MikeF said: "It is indeed challenging to get the guys thinking in terms of responsibility and accountability when they have never seen these things in action by boys."

 

We have this issue with our scouts. As a result, when we have a new SPL, he and I usually go visit another troop together. The troop I usually choose is a very established and strongly boy-led, patrol centric unit. The SM is a retired SE (nearly 50 years of BSA professional service) and is a Distinguished Eagle Scout. Though he is approaching his mid-80s, his presence with the scouts is amazing, but the SPL and PLC really run the show.

 

We announce beforehand that we are coming (with the SM and a MC who are both friends of mine), and we come in full uniform (we would be challenged by the scouts if we did not , as happened a year ago when our SPL showed up in blue athletic shorts--funny story, another time). It is usually an eye-opening experience for the scout accompanying me.

 

Is it spying? Well I guess that depends upon your perspective. My goal is to facilitiate a better unit. Do they know my SPL and I are taking ideas back from their meetings? Yes. Are we going to use it to crush them at the next camporee? Hopefully--I mean, no. Are we going to try to out-recruit them? Sure. Will we? Probably not this year, but maybe next year....

[Lisabob]

I suppose this depends a little on the scout's approach and demeanor. As long as the boy is made aware that he should act in an honorable manner toward the other troop, there is no problem. If the boy perceives this as his opportunity to skulk around and undermine the other troop in some way, if the adults and youth in your troop are accustomed to verbally bashing the other troop and this boy is planning to take his sense of superiority over there and be obnoxious about it, etc., then somebody needs to have a talk with him about courtesy. Allay your fears by making sure everything is above-board and out in the open. Then let the boy go see what there is to see.

 

 

[SctDad]

I would say let the boy go. If you are running a boy led program and and the young lad wants to go and get other ideas on what to do, then let him go. The SM knows that he is coming, you know that he is going, and the other leaders do not have an issue with it.

 

Why stop the boy from going to see what works for another troop. Maybe you can try an exchange program. I am sure that your troop does something that the other troop may like. You said that you are one of the more active troops in the area. They do High Adventure and produce Eagles. Sounds like you may also want to sit down with your leaders and have some brain storming. Don't look at it as spying. Look at it as learning.

[gcnphkr]

Spying? I think not.

 

One of my WB tickets is to visit other troops to see what they do well and look for ways to improve the program in my troop. The scoutmasters know I'm coming and why. I'm tickled when others come and visit our troop. Overall, scouting would improve if we would all do more of this "spying".

 

I echo what LB said. A scout is courteous, and he should be encouraged to listen and look for the good. As I learned from my own visits, it is easy to find things that they do poorly. Criticalness can come very easy to us.

 

It does seem like there is a bit of "Troop Envy" going on here on your part. Perhaps you should go "spy" for a while.

[scoutldr]

Maybe the kid will make a good UC one day. Lord knows we need 'em.

[Mafaking]

 

We lose more scouts to band and sports than we other troops.

 

 

[Eagle92]

Hopefully as other have posted, hwen he comes back he may have some ideas for improving the troop. Heck my old troop did joint activities at times with other troops and while there was freindly competition amongst us, as long as it didn't get overboard and unscoutlike, as one troop did tend to get, it was all good. Infact we learned from each other atthese activities

 

Now I've seen the attitude of "stealing scouts," "Spying on the troop," etc with leaders mostly. Heck I saw it last nite at RT 'cause one of our former DLs was asked by his church to restart their Pack and eventually troop. While it's been known for a year by some of the pack leadership, others didn't know and it hit hard that we were losing him. Especially since the new CM is an outstanding leader, and in fact I was hoping the troop would recruit him to be SM when the time comes instead of me as I will still have about 5 more years of cubs left

 

The leader is new adn doesn't understand that it isn't just about the pack, it's about the Cubs, or the scouts in the OP. that's what we need to focus on: What is best for the Scout!