Older Scouts

[OneHour]

This issue has been posted. I need new and fresh ideas if you have one that works. Here is the old issue:

- We have about 80 scouts registered.

- We have 32 new scouts of those 80 in three new patrols.

- We have an SPL who has three ASPLs, one responsible for trails to first class (coordinate and manage, 2 troop guides for each patrol, 2 instructors for each patrol), the other 2 ASPLs divide the responsibility of helping the 6 patrols (namely having the PLs report to the ASPL). We have the typical set of PLC 1 historian, 1 scribe, 2 quartermasters (too large of a job for 1), and a buggler. That's 20 POR! So practically everyone has a job to do.

- We have about 20 Life scouts. Some seem to be "stuck" at Life for the past 2 years. Of these 20, 13 are 15, 16, 17 range. They don't want to do anything.

 

How do I get these older scouts to take an interest in the troop instead of "doing their time" to eagle? They finished their requirements long ago! Some are working on their projects. Some just need mbs.

 

They tend to distract the younger scouts!

 

Thanks,

1hour

[Eagle92]

WHAT A GREAT PROBLEM! Seriously a troop with 80 active youth is awesome.

 

now to the question at hand: how to get the older scouts involved.

 

1)Instill in them a sense of "it's time to pay back by helping the younger scouts" This can be doen in a variety of ways: the SPL giving them all a variety of teachign and leadership assignemts, usually focusing on the skils they have mastered. Of course letting them organize and ru the troop meeting and campouts via the PLC is another method, and the one that should be used no matter what. The key is you got to motivate themto do it, and then LEt THEM PASS THE IDEA OF GIVIGN BACK ON TO THE YOUNGER SCOUTS.

 

2)Reward the older scouts by allowign them to do activities on their own. This could be compeltely separate for the troop, or for some activities, having them do a different activity form the rest of the troop. A good exampelof the latter would be the troop doign one type of hike, and the older scouts doign a more challenging one.

 

3) Counsel and advise them via a SMC.

 

Good luck.

[boomerscout]

sounds like time for another High Adventure! Where haven't they been? Plan for a bike tour of Europe, maybe? To qualify they'll need to get re-involved with Scouting

[GernBlansten]

High adventures are a double edged sword.

After my guys got back, they really didn't want to work with the "little kids" anymore on mundane stuff. Normal troop campouts were just too boring.

[Eagle92]

GB,

I hear ya and that happened to me after doing my first 50 miler up in Canada. That and I also had to work so support myself growing up.

 

BUT you can get them to come to meetings and get them to teach the skills they know to the younger ones.

 

The secret I believe is to have a few activities through out the year that they can do by themselves awayy from the younger scouts.

[OldGreyEagle]

Rather then asking us, have you asked the youth? I don't mean this as a flp answer, you asked a serious question that does come up quite a bit and deserve a serious answer. The problem is, what may have worked in the troop I serve may not work in the troop you serve, you can't produce a program that will have the youth like if you don't know what they like, what they are looking for.

 

we can give you lots of ideas, be sure to run them by your youth before you invest a lot of time in something no one wants

[Beavah]

Was 32 new scouts an unusual or an ordinary year for your program, OneHour?

 

Some of da options depend on what yeh see the size of your troop bein', and what attrition you get / accept.

 

After my guys got back, they really didn't want to work with the "little kids" anymore on mundane stuff.

 

Yah, that's da downside of the age-stratified system, eh?

 

Older boys need to lead and feel responsible. They need to feel like adults, eh? There's a really profound difference in a lad's mind between being assigned to be a Troop Guide or Instructor (babysitting little kids) and reachin' the point where you can be a Patrol Leader in a mixed age patrol (I've become the awesome cool older guy I used to look up to, and I'm responsible and trusted). Just tend to be different mindsets and troop dynamics, eh? The being recognized/in charge/responsible thing matters a lot to lads... a lot more than high adventure.

 

One of the challenges of really big & stratified troops is also on the youth leadership side. Big programs have so much logistics overhead that while there are a lot of jobs, there's often not enough real leadership opportunity for a big group of older boys. Da structure of the troop tends to be pretty well set fast and adult managed. Jobs to do are just chores, eh? It's when yeh get to decide what happens that it's fun, and there's just less chance for that in big troops.

 

I've found most large troops like OneHour's solve da problem by goin' the Venture Patrol or shuffle-off-to-Venturing route. Move 'em up and out into doin' their own thing, essentially. That can work well, but only if that added program level/activity set provides more opportunities for youth leadership and growth. With 20 boys in the group, you'd need two patrols doin' different adventure things. And yeh need da right sort of adults to advise 'em. As Gern mentions, the downside is that yeh are makin' a choice to move 'em up and out of the more mundane troop operations, and reinforcing that that expectation in your program goin' forward.

 

Another thing to consider, if things are feelin' a bit "big" is whether it's time to split or spin off a new troop, eh? That instantly doubles the real opportunities for older boys while halving the young-kids-to-babysit group.

 

Beavah

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[OneHour]

OGE, I have asked them! I have talked to them! I usually get the "lip services." I asked ... what would you gentlemen would like to do at troop meetings to keep you interested? They tend to shrug their shoulders and give me the usual "I don't know. We just like to hang out." Of the 12 troop guides/instructors, many of them are of the middle age groups (13,14,15). They do it because they need the PORs. The older ones, they completed their POR requirements! Now ... we had an election this past Monday, one of the Older Scouts won the SPL election. This is the first time that they put their names in the hat. After they complained that the troop is run by the younger scouts, I asked them point-blank, "What are you going to do about it?"

 

We have High Adventure; as a matter of fact, we just came back for Philmont. It was this that they came to the meeting, because one of the requirements was to have 75% attendance and so many campouts. This is to ensure that they get their training in. But we don't get to do Philmont every year and it is only summer event and the months leading up to it. Outside of that ... there isn't much for the older boys to do. They do not want to teach the younger scouts especially when we have Troop Guides and Instructors.

 

Eagle 92, I have 80 registered, but 50 active at any one troop meeting ... not bad still! If I don't find something to keep these 20+ interested, it will be down to 35-40 active at troop meeting or campouts! I have plenty of SMC with them individually and as patrols!

 

Gern pointed out correctly. After Hi Adv, they don't want to do basic skills. They laugh at Camporees, First Aid Meets, etc. Normal campout is too boring! So I have a young troop eventhough I have about 47 13-17 years old!

 

Bike tour through Europe is great, but $. This coming summer we have 3 crews heading to SeaBase and 1 to Alaska. That's more than enough Hi Adv? We try to have Hi Adv to each Campout but we don't have enough interests from these guys to pull it together for the monthly campout.

 

Beavah, 32 is unusually large for us but not unusual. For the 7 years that I have been with the troop, the first 3 we recruit 20+ boys each year (adding to the 24 that the troop started out with). The next two, we have 10-12. I left last year and we had 0. This year is my 1st year as SM. Most of the orginal 24 have quit or aged out. Attrition and graduation rate is about 5-7 boys each year. Of the current 32 new boys, we lost 5 so far: 2 moved, 1 went to another troop that has 2 boys who have the same condition that the scout has, and 2 quit (1 because of father got angry), 1 because the boy never wanted to be in scout in the first place).

 

By the way, we have done SeaBase, Boundary Water, Philmont, Double-H, Hamman Scout Ranch, Hi Adv at various summer camps, various troop-spawned Hi Adv trips.

 

1Hour(This message has been edited by OneHour)

[BrentAllen]

OneHour,

We aren't to that age group yet, so I can't offer any suggestions from experience. That being said, I would suggest trying to find more challenging activities for the older Scouts. My guess is most 15 - 17 year olds aren't going to be interested in working with the younger boys, so what to do with them? Instead of trying to make them be officers and run the program (if they really don't want that), use them as an example to keep the younger boys in the Troop, by letting them do some really exciting stuff (which they hopefully will plan for themselves). High Adventure is one option. Taking Wilderness First Aid is another - maybe also volunteering to be a "victim" in the course. Have some EMTs come in and go over some advanced first aid, just with the older boys. Learn search and rescue. SCUBA. Ask them what they want to do and try to provide a program just for them. That will probably require one or two ASMs focused only on the older boy program.

 

Ideally, these older boys would be running the Troop program. I'm guessing once these boys have been PL, QM, ASPL, SPL it is going to be hard to keep them excited about doing those jobs again. And with 20 of these boys, you would have too many cooks in the kitchen. It looks to me like you have two choices - 1. try to force them to hold PORs and run the program for the younger boys, which they don't want to do, so you lose them, or 2. develop a program for them that is exciting and challenging, and will keep them active in Scouts. If you go with the latter, you will at least have them around to hopefully help out from time to time. Once they have acquired some advanced skills, you can request they teach them to the Troop, as Instructors. My guess is they might be interested in showing off these advanced skills from time to time.

 

We had a slightly similar problem, with our whitewater rafting. Our older boys (13 year olds) had been down the Nantahala 4 or 5 times, and were bored with it. This past weekend we went up to see Unto These Hills (great show!) and go rafting on Sunday. I enticed the older boys to go by asking them if they wanted to be the guides - now they were hooked. 3 of the boys guided their rafts (each had an adult in the boat) and had a great experience. They were nervous, excited and challenged. I later heard one of the boys describing the experience to the outfitter, and asking about becoming a river guide. An activity that had been boring was now very exciting. Maybe the same can be done with other activities.

 

Green Bar Bill had a chapter in the SM HB (3rd edition) on Senior Scouts, "The Senior Scout in the Troop":

"All of the activities mentioned in the previous Chapters are capable of holding the older boy, provided they are carefully planned and well executed. Wherever possible, all efforts should be aimed toward keeping older Scouts interested in the regular program of the Troop. These older fellows represent a very important investment to the Scoutmaster. They have been trained in the leadership and Scoutcraft and consequently can be used in leadership and training of younger Scouts.

 

Nevertheless, it will be found that the boy when he reaches Senior Scout status and grows into young manhood desires added features, "Senior Scout Activities," which he feels are more definitely planned for him. This does not mean that he is growing away from Scouting, but rather that he wants it in a more advanced form. It should be definitely understood that Senior Scouting Activities are largely advanced - or grown-up - Scouting.

 

As already mentioned (in Chapter 16) the main program changes which may be found necessary to hold the older boy are constituted by

1. More rugged hiking and camping (wilderness adventuring).

2. Extended responsibilities.

3. Increased social activities.

4. Varied emphasis of the Merit Badge Program."

 

He goes into each of those areas in greater detail. There are also chapters on "The Explorer Patrol in the Troop" (now called Venture Patrols), "The Sea Scout Patrol in the Troop" and "Other Senior Scouting Activities." While some of the material is dated (late 1930's), most of it is still very applicable.

[Beavah]

I enticed the older boys to go by asking them if they wanted to be the guides - now they were hooked.

 

Bravo, Brent! That's exactly what I was talkin' about. It's not so much that da older guys mind bein' with the younger guys, it's that they get annoyed by da assigned chore of dealin' with them. But if they have real leadership opportunities where they are responsible for younger guys, it's great.

 

So that's one option for yeh, OneHour, but it's a long-term fix that requires a pretty big rethink/restructure of how the troop runs, eh? And to be honest, it's hard to do in a troop as large as yours.

 

Another option is the Venture Patrols option, but here again yeh have to Think Different . High adventure is not an adult-initiated crew going to Philmont in the summer. That's an activity, not a program. A Venture Patrol is a group of guys that decide that they want to work on SCUBA and sailin' all fall, and yeh quietly advise them about how THEY can make that happen. And another patrol that decides water is wet and they'd rather learn how to lead climb, so they spend their fall trainin' at the rock gym and climbing weekends at da local bluff, doing all their own rigging and planning and safety. Then next spring they run a week-long climbin' trip or sailin'/SCUBA trip over Easter.

 

And when either gets good, they might be guides for a younger patrol or two in their chosen activity. And then after that, they might move on to a new activity like whitewater or canyoneering.

 

That way your Venture Patrols are a program instead of a summer activity, eh? They're buildin' skills to offer your troop program, and bein' given lots of opportunities for leadership and distinction, rather than just doin' the chore of required meetings and prep for the summer HA activity.

 

Often in Scoutin', it's not da activities we do that count, eh? It's how we envision those activities. If we go into things thinkin' "I want these guys to be able to sail and SCUBA on their own, leading younger guys" that's a very different thing than "I want to provide these guys a great high adventure sailing experience." The former is good Scoutin'. The latter is just an eco-vacation.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Buffalo Skipper]

80 Active Scouts! Wow!

 

I know many will absolutely flip at this, but my first reaction would be to divide that troop, as quick as you can, and not in two but into 3 troops!

 

In his book Aids to Scoutmastership, Baden Powell devoted a whole section to his chapter on Character to "Why a Troop Should Not Exceed 32." In fact, he suggested that he would not have a troop over 16, but "...I allow for other people being twice as capable as myself and hence the total of thirty-two."

 

Clearly with a troop that size, you cannot interact personally with each and every scout; you have a staff of ASMs to do that, and with a good program, they are obviously very capeable. Recruiting is not a problem, so all you need to do is divy up your leaders. Time for the ASMs to step up and be SMs of smaller groups. No need to find new a new charter partner, just ask your current one to charter one or two additional troops. And then have them meet on different days. When a church grows and an adult Sunday School class becomes too large, it divides. The new class doesn't leave the church, but it does meet at a different place and sometimes at a new time or day.

 

I would consider dividing a troop as the ultimate mark of a unit's success, and further contributing to the growth and future of Scouting!

 

Now back to reality. No I really don't expect this as your solution (though it would be the first thing I would do). But do take a close look at your program and think outside the box (a smaller group is much easier to manage, and you could have 3 SPLs gaining experience at a time instead of one).

 

Aids to Scoutmastership is a timeless insight into BPs expectations of what a troop and Scoutmaster should be. Surprisingly, though nearly a century old, 95% of what is in the book is completely relevant in today's world.

Here is an online version: http://www.pinetreeweb.com/bp-aids.htm

or a downloadable .pdf: http://nlc.scouts.ca/bcm/nlc/nlc-website.nsf/AllDocSearch/F35CB029517C6C4F87256FA6007D39B0

 

[Eagle92]

Venture patrols do work, so I second that.

 

As for the 'Young Scouts" running the meetings, glad you told them to get off tehir duff and dosomethign about it as THEY are suppose to be running the meetings, teaching skills, ect as THEY have the KSAs to do it.

 

As for them being bored at camporees camps, etc. A few ideas.

 

1) CHALLENGE THEM to beat the other patrols int he troop and otehr troops. THEY may be surprised at how much their skills are laggin behind the "young Scouts"

 

2) have them create the campout program. Again they have the KSAs

 

3) have them plan 3-4 activities that they can do by themselves throughout the year. It could be in conjuntion with a troop planned event, or they can go their own way.

 

Give them the ability ot and resposnibility for doing something ANYTHING, on their own AND LET THEM DO IT, unless of course it violates G2SS.

 

good luck and my caps is for emphasis, not shouting.

[boomerscout]

High Adventure is well & good, but now it may be time for higher adventure. They've been to Philmont-have they been north of Glacier? They've been to Northern Tier-have they been to the far north? Yes, this stuff costs money. So, what kind of fund-raising do they do on their own? Have they been taught project management? Are they all EMTs? Do they all have the Hornaday silver medal?

Camporees are more for the t-2-1 level. As several have mentioned, it's boring for older Scouts; they need something with more scope. Helping the younger Scouts is good if it's not the same stuff over and over. We have our older Scouts design the patrol competitions. We then have them do the competitions themselves as a dry run which provokes much merriment -- videotaped of course. Lots of bragging rights if the patrol you've trained comes in first. A bit harder to do at camporees as "foreign" adults tend to meddle; still doable with enough planning.

Many have said the size of your troop is too large. Are volunteer leaders plentiful in your area?

[OneHour]

Splitting is not as easy as one think it is. We split before. 8 years ago, our troop and our neighboring troop were one. Now, we have 80 and they have 60. There was a third troop; however, they want to remain as a private troop. I have 8 ASMs to help, but 3 are ready to move on with their Eagles! My problem is that the ASMs are from the old school of boy-lead means laisez-faire. I'm not going into a debate of this; however, my take is that "if you don't teach them, don't blame them." My problem is how to spice up the troop meeting or involve the older boys so that they are willing to come to troop meetings. Ideally, they come and ready to roll up their sleeves to run the troop. Realistically, I just want them to be and feel that they are part of the troop.

 

[Buffalo Skipper]

One Hour, I really was trying to make dividing a "here is your answer discussion." I assumed you had circumstances which would have discouraged this course of action. But if you have split before, I would like to discuss that with you privately or on another thread without hijacking this one.

 

My real point was to think of unconventional solutions and consider them. I expect that your solution will not be a single "silver bullet," but instead may be combination of smaller things. Another similar option may be organizing a Venturing Crew. I am teaching a course at our upcoming Commissioner College on "Venturing and the Commissioner," and I came across quite a bit of material about using Venturing crews to relieve Troop stress and as a method of active retention. PM me if you like and I can forward you some of these documents.