service hours and school/church requirements

[Lisabob]

Someone posted in the other thread that their school district requires 100 hours of community service in order for students to attend the graduation ceremony. The question was whether such hours could also be counted toward scouting.

 

My son's school (and I think, all Michigan schools) requires 40 hours of service in order to be eligible for a state-sponsored scholarship. The scholarship info sheet explicitly allows for service done in conjunction with community organizations or clubs to count, as long as it is properly documented and not done for money.

 

Many of the local churches also have a service requirement as part of their religious education. Again, they don't seem to have any problem with boys using their service hours for both church and scouting.

 

So it seems clear to me that the school, the state, and a lot of churches have no problem with "double dipping." The question to me is, why should we in scouting have a problem with this? Isn't it a little bit beside the point, who the service "counts" for? Isn't the point of requiring community service simply to help the community, and perhaps to instill in our youth the notion that you have responsibilities toward others? Can't we accomplish these goals without taking "ownership" of which service hours "belong" to us?

 

Maybe I'm looking at this all wrong but it almost seems a little arrogant of us to say "well you have to do service solely in the name of OUR GROUP in order for us to recognize it."

 

And yes, I agree, there are a lot of opportunities for service. I also don't buy the "I can't find a place to do my service hours" argument that scouts (and others) sometimes give.

 

 

 

[PeteM]

"well you have to do service solely in the name of OUR GROUP in order for us to recognize it."

Where is this rule written down?

Is it at the national level, council or district level?

or is it solely at the troop level?

 

If it is at anything other than at the national level, then it is adding to the requirements and NOT permitted.

[sherminator505]

I don't think that service hours for school and service hours for Scouting should be mutually exclusive. And in the case of an Eagle candidate, I could easily see the time spent on that being applicable to the school requirement. The only problem I could see arising would be on the part of the school, not on the part of the Scouts.

[DanKroh]

Lisabob, my sons' school has also instituted service hours as a graduation requirement, and they have been slowly ramping it up over the last couple of years. I believe the first class that this applied to had to have 20 hours (over their 4 years of high school). My oldest needs 50 (he will be a sophomore this year). I'm not sure what their final number will be.

 

My experience so far is that his scouting service hours will be approved by the school, but not all the hours that the school counts will be approved by scouts. For instance, he volunteers in the school library. The school counts that, but I'm not sure if scouts will accept it. Of course, the number of hours for scouting is quite a bit less than the school requirement, so it hasn't really been an issue.

 

I think they should be able to count the same service hours for as many organizations as need them (scouts, school, NHS, etc.) because if we started having them be mutually exclusive, some of these kids wouldn't have time for much else in their lives.

[eisely]

PeteM

 

Nobody is trying to add to this requirement. There is legitimate uncertainty and some disagreement about how other service type activities undertaken under the auspices of other organizations should be treated. Certainly scouts should not be punished with extra service hours under a particular interpretation or unduly burdened. Double counting is clearly a widely acceptable practice. However, I don't think anybody is suggesting that scout units should automatically give full credit for any service hours claimed without at least some understanding of the nature of the service. Scout units probably would be well advised to think about this in the context of their local situations and come up with policies that are fair and even handed, and easily understood.

[Mafaking]

 

Service is service.

 

The only reasons I can see for scouts specific service project is for the BSA to take credit for the service.

 

If we go back a step and examine why BSA requires community service of our scouts I will suggest that it is more for the development of the scout than to provide free labor to the community. While doing service the scout learns about his community, may go to places and see people they have never seen before. Experience the satisfaction of helping others. Learn leadership and work ethics.

 

If we agree that the primary purpose of requiring scouts to do service projects is for the individual scout's development, than it should not matter under what banner the work is performed.

 

Now if the argument is that the community needs the free service from their teenagers. That this is a form of payback for free public education. Well then we have a different argument all together.

 

Why not just make it 1,000 hrs? That should cover the $8,000 a year cost for one pupil.

 

But we built thees tykes soccer and baseball fields to play on too. Tack on anther 200 hours. Dang teenage moochers!

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Gunny2862]

And as the one whose comments MAY have fired this off, I agree in principle that some hours might be eligible to be double counted.

 

But I just don't feel that a kid who (for example) is in Key Club should get (Key Club)credit for helping in the Library during his (in some schools, get School credit here) Study Hall while satisfying volunteer hours for graduation (graduation credit here) and be able to use it for Scouting also. And if doing a project AT a school if they choose to accept his Eagle project hours or any part of them for their requirement, that's fine.

 

I'm not trying to add to requirements unnecessarily, but neither do I feel that just because someone else's organization accepts the hours that Scouting HAS to.

[gcnphkr]

I generally accept service hours for service rendered to other organizations. It might depend on what was done, but for the most part I count it. However, I cannot think of a scout who actually needed the hours. Other organizations may not do the same. I know one school that accepts some of the hours but not for everything.

[Twocubdad]

My sons' school requires 40 hours per year of communtiy service to advance to the next grade and as a graduation requirement for Seniors. Based on the flurry of emails during the last week or so of school, there were a number of kids who didn't consider it a "real" requirement and there was apparently some scrambling to get it done. Last year my older son did a "reverse dip" and counted his Eagle project for his service hours at school. The school certainly didn't have problem with that.

 

Generally, I don't have a problem with Scouts double dipping. Call it appropriate use of resources. If a Scout has done 20 or 40 hours of service for school, I'd say he has adequately covered the six hours for Star or Life. Double-dipping seems to be a fairly well engrained idea. Scouts playing on school teams may count team workouts for Personal Fitness (provided they go the extra step of tracking their workouts and doing the interim tests.) Using the school DARE program or something similar is specifically listed in the second class requirement.

 

One thing I require of my Star Scouts working on the Life service requirement is to give me a written proposal for their Life service project. No big write-up, one paragraph is fine. Going into the project, I want them to try to do the entire six hours on one project. If they come up short, they can fill out the six hours with something else. My purpose is to get the Scouts to give some real thought to the projectand do something which is meaningful and memorable.

 

Otherwise what I get are Scouts who after-the-fact just stitch together stuff they've done without really thinking about -- "My church group helped at the homeless shelter for three hours and, uh, I did Scouting for Food for two hours, and uh, uh, uh, I cleaned the erasers for my teacher and, uh, uh, uh,." That's not service, that's a creative writing project.

 

 

 

[ManyHats]

What's your take on the 100 year patch with streamers? Some of the requirements are definitely going to be double dipped.

*Earn one Cub Scout Academics belt loop and one Cub Scout Sports belt loop.

*Complete one achievement or activity badge for your rank.

[RememberSchiff]

??? I guess I am old school where a term paper or project for one course could not be used for another course. Try it and you failed and likely face academic suspension. You should only get credit once for the work you did so you learn something new in the next course or next year!

 

Not today, where the attitude is how much credit can I get for whatever little I did. Can the neckerchief slide I whittled as a Bear count toward Woodcarving merit badge? Let's see if I take a single ten mile hike - how many places can I get credit for it. Yes, let's teach our scouts to work the system and acheive Eagle with minimum work.

 

Lazy.

 

My $0.02,

 

[evmori]

What's the difference if a Scout uses a valid service project for church, school, Scouts, baseball league, math club, etc. Where in Scouting literature does it state this isn't allowed?

[John-in-KC]

To me, it depends on the circumstances.

 

EagleSon, as part of his Forensics 1 class in HS, had to staff a debate tournament we were host of. The requirement was for 4 hours of service to the class. If the youth wanted credit for their A+ (Missouri tuition at undergrad/vo tech level) program service hours, they could serve up to 8 more.

 

He did the 12, and got all done.

 

When EagleSon was a Star, he was starting 8th grade confirmation at church. There, he had a 30 service hour requirement over the course of his confirmation year. He volunteered to be J-Staff at District Cub Day Camp. Over that week, he put in 40 hours of service. He allocated 6 to Star--->Life requirement (yes, his SM approved), and he allocated the other 34 to his church requirement.

 

One project, but hours went to two different places, and no real double-dipping.

 

He's just completed his fourth season as a Camp Staffer. He sings in the church contemporary worship praise team, and he's one of the first to volunteer for activities around his university marching band. Is the ethic of service inculcated? I think so.

 

Point of all this? Each Scout, each opportunity for service has to be looked at on its own merits. The object of the exercise is the CITIZENSHIP aim and the IDEALS and PERSONAL GROWTH methods. If we're trying to do "one size fits all," it's us Scouters who are being lazy.

[sherminator505]

There's probably an extreme to double-dipping that we'd probably not like to see. However, a rigid interpretation prohibiting double-dipping could also lead to problems. For example, suppose that we tell a Scout that his participation on campouts to earn First Class doesn't count towards OA eligibility. Where would that get us? No place good, I'm guessing.

 

Best advice - use judgment.

[Gunny2862]

I'm sorry Sherm but to me that argument doesn't hold - Participation in BSA Overnight Camping IS the prerequisite for the OA eligibility, isn't it?