A Scout is Reverent - unless he works at scout camp

[Nachamawat]

Being in God's great outdoors surrounded by the beauty of nature what a better place to practice a Scout is reverent on your own. Take a moment of solitude while walking down the trail to drink in the beauty and solitude of God's creation and say your own simple words of thanks. Why must someone's worship be done communally to be validated? Is my silent prayer not as worthy as my congregational prayer? Does my prayer of thanks for being permitted to awaken another day fall on deaf ears simply because I utter it from my bedside?

 

These Boy Scouts are providing a responsible, mature, and reverent service to their fellow Scouts by serving on camp staff, a moment of thoughtful silence on their part, deep in the woods of a council camp, carry a far greater message than my little utterance of thanks ever could.

[Nike]

I suppose going to 8 am service is not an option for some congregations.

 

Perhaps one solution would be to invite pastors/priests/IHs from different congregations around the council to "come to camp" and spend a quiet Saturday night in meditation then have a non-denom service Sunday mornings, offer communion to those wishing it, and then hang around to see just how camp works.

[momma_bee]

I guess this was on my mind because we were talking about reverence with a non-churched Life Scout at a BOR (well, he was Life after that BOR, Life Canidate until the paper is signed?) And you are right, reverence is lived and worship can be solitary but some times worshiping with like-minded folks builds you up in ways you need.

 

And, some folks who are there on Sunday are less than reverent the rest of the week.

 

No 8am services handy to camp - and we were at our 8:30 service. It was still 65 miles from camp. (we worship OOC)

 

And, this is one of those 'give an inch and they'll take a mile' things. I just have to wonder if being late because of church is the same as late because of a flat tire, oversleeping or standing around talking to a friend? You know, if 15 minutes are ok because my BigBee is at church, then 15 minutes is ok because Nachamawat is on the trail and then, well, someone would start to say they were praying in their tent when they were dozing.

 

It is something we need to talk to him about. It is a faith discussion more than an employer discussion.

 

And, FWIW, my son didn't get a contract defining hours until the staff training weekend - not exactly the best time or place to consider the effect of the starting time. And, not-signing would mean a staff member who missed trainings.

 

Times for meetings are not published at all, so if someone has noon prayers, there could be a daily noon meeting and you wouldn't know until you got there. (who is it that prays 5 times a day?)

 

 

[kcs_hiker]

well, to my knowledge, Muslims pray at sunrise, noon, and sunset. I suppose it would be tough for a Muslim to be a staffer.

[nolesrule]

You know summer camp starts on Sundays. Before you join up, you ask what time you are expected to be on-site. If that time is an issue, ask if there is a way to accommodate. If they can, great. If they really need you there, think long and hard about whether or not the job is right for you. Once you make the commitment to camp staff, you've lost the opportunity to make that choice.

 

And that advice is true in life far beyond summer camp staff.

 

[rant]

 

As a Jew, I have a lot of trouble sympathizing with all these "Conflicts with going to church on Sunday a couple times a year" issues. No one ever seems to think twice about all the choices that Jews, Muslims and members of other non-Christian religious groups make just to be able to participate in Scouting regularly, especially in areas where the population can't support a whole unit based on any of those sets of religious principles.

 

How well would it work if I said that from Friday evening to Saturday night I could not light a fire, extinguish a fire, construct a pioneering project, walk more than a mile from my tent while carrying anything, planting, cooking with heat. Heck, to pitch my own tent I'd need to be on-site Friday with enough time to get it erected before sunset. I won't even get into the food issues. But none of that goes over well in a patrol on a camping trip.

 

[/rant]

[prairie]

Nachamawat covered my first point far better than I could, Thankyou.

Sometines when I hear this sort of proablem I wonder if it might also be a parents issues with letting their son grow up. I know I find God outside and by myself, not in a crowded, stifeling and noisy building.

If praying at noon is important remenber by the sun noon happens at 11AM, daylight savings time is mans foolish attempt to get more done with out getting out of bed any earlier than he has to.

 

[nolesrule]

Well, if you want to be astronomically correct, solar noon occurs when the sun is directly overhead, and that time is different everyday (by a few seconds at least) regardless of standard or daylight savings time. but will vary by latitude and longitude (thanks to the axis tilt and earth rotation speed), even in the same time zone.

 

Here are today's solar noon time for 2 cities separated by about 25 miles

Clearwater, FL: 1:36:29PM

Tampa, FL: 1:35:27PM

 

 

Sunrise and sunset times are also affected by both longitude and latitude, and this is even more noticeable.

 

Also, during DST, things occur an hour later, not earlier, because you've moved the clock ahead. What used to be 12pm is now 1pm.(This message has been edited by nolesrule)

[prairie]

I would get that backwards and it's too late to edit. (shakes head)

1PM or 13:00 DST = Noon standard time,

 

[John-in-KC]

Frankly,

 

I'm more concerned about the spiritual care of the Staff than I am about whether Bobby, Billy, or EagleSon make a specific worship service. I'd far rather see a staff Chaplain, equipped to provide faith based studies (for the protestant Christian in high school or early college it's God and Life, but there are peer packages for most other faith groups which have a religous emblem accepted by BSA), than I would worry about EagleSon worshipping with me. It's part of cutting my own apron strings to him.

 

I'm more concerned about the spiritual care of the Staff. EagleSon recently lost his Grandma. The Reservation Chaplain, the Director, and the business manager (all good people of God) surrounded him in love, as did his peers on staff.

 

To me, it's scandalous that a Council does not have a Reservation Chaplain whose ministry is to provide spiritual care for the Staff. It's that simple. That a Chaplain thinks his/her job is done with a weekly vesper service indicates a level of cluelessness in a Council.

[Nachamawat]

As I sat in Mass today I reflected about this problem. Then I was surprised to hear the Gospel reading was Mark 6:7-13 about Jesus sending His Disciples out "two by two" with only a hiking stick to spread His Word. Talk about irony. If this does not point out that a Scout is reverent by working on camp staff, what does? These boys and girls on staff are using their gifts to assist Scouts become better citizens and better Scouts. They are using their talents to help grow the next generation, perhaps the way some of us did over the years. Can't that simply be seen as a method of worship, too?

 

Our troop attended an OOC camp that was not fortunate enough to have an on-staff chaplain. The schedule called for a Sunday and Wednesday vesper service. Although the Sunday service fell through, we adults pulled together on Wednesday night and held an impromptu service of our own. Perhaps, the staff could do the same at BigBee's camp and hold a nondenominational service if the desire for communal prayer is that strong. But then again, why not simply say a prayer of thanks while moving from one activity to another during the day, isn't God the only one that needs to know you are praying?

[John-in-KC]

Considering the things which have happened in the past decade in my Council:

 

- Suicide of a staff member

 

- Staff member receiving a "Dear John" letter

 

- Death of a staff member parent

 

- Death of a camper

 

- Extreme change in financial circumstances of a staff members family

 

To me, it is utterly scandalous that any Boy Scout Council in the United States does not have a Chaplain on close recall to minister to the spiritual needs of the Staff.

[DeanRx]

I tend to look at this in a wider sense...

 

Yes, its easy to lay the issue at the feet of the Camp Director or Council(they should have a chaplain on staff), or to lay the issue at the feet of the staffer and state "well, he should have known the schedule when they took the job..."

 

My take is this...

 

This relatively small issue (in the grand scheme of things) is a wonderful opportunitiy for this young man and staff member to LEARN about the challenges of juggling many aspects of his life. Better he struggle with this now, and know where his heart stands and how to communicate requests effectively to a workplace supervisor, than not learn it and have to face the issue in the "real world" when a work schedule conflicts with his sick child or their recital, sporting event, etc...

 

He has an opportunity to LEARN how to ask for a time exception and explain WHY he needs it. He has the oppostunity to COMMUNICATE effectively. He has an opportunity to NEGOTIATE that if he can be a little late due to church, then he is willing to do x, y, z ... in addition to his normal duties, or come in early or stay late another day to make up the time.

 

In short, its a chance for him to find common ground and create a win-win for both himself AND his camp director. Maybe this means HE volunteers to lead a non-denom service for the camp or at least the camp staffers that want it. This shows initiative, problem solving ability, helps out his camp, and still allows him to uphold his commitment to his faith.

 

Bottom line - we all face situations daily that involve making a choice between two things we know are the right thing to do. I've left work early knowing full well my boss won't like it, but my kid was sick and needed care - the wife was the only one staffing at her job that day (couldn't leave) and I get sick leave and she doesn't. Does that make me a un "trustworthy" scout because of my choice? In my employer's eyes, maybe. In my child'd eyes, I doubt it. Thousands of parents make that kind fo choice on a daily basis. Its not that there is a RIGHT choice, but a choice must be made none the less.

 

Does it matter if he's late because of church vs late because he's goofing off? In a perfect world, I'd say yes. In reality, I'd say no. If I'm gone from work for a sick child the productivity lost to my employer is the same as if I skip out to go play golf. Even if I can justify one reason more readily in my mind than the other.

 

This is a learning opportunity for this scout. As a parent, I would encourage talking with him about how he handled the tardiness, how / if he fully informed his supervisor, and avenues on how to overcome similar issues in the future (because they will happen to everyone from time to time). Then lay out some options with him and let him make the choice. Then he can live with the consequnce.

 

The consequence may be no big deal, or it may be that he doesn't get asked to be staff next year (can't see a Camp Dir. doing that but then again, I've never been a camp dir.) Either way, he'll be able to stand by his choice and accept the outcome.

 

Thats really what we're trying to accomplish via scouting anyways, right?

[gwd-scouter]

Nicely put, DeanRx

[momma_bee]

He wasn't late - he was advising her of a potiential problem.

 

The only meeting he was tardy for was in the first week and he overslept - he took his 'punishment' and learned his lesson.

 

And, I listened in to last weeks meeting. It didn't start at 11. As a leader, I attended quite a few of her meetings that 'started' with her walking in, and filling her cup and then getting out papers a minute or two after the 'time'. In part because someone else was talking to her in the doorway about a problem that wasn't public knowledge.

 

So, him being late has been modeled through the years by the staff.

 

I don't think I asked for special treatment for my son either.

 

I think a better response would have been "You know, if you are late for the meeting, you will need to work in the kitchen and that will be your second tardy. We will be looking at attendence at the meetings when we consider hiring for next year."

 

As far as his actually spiritual needs go - there is a staff run Bible study, he has a close friendship with an adult couple who worship at a church of the same denomination (she is on staff, he is OA) and yes, he can learn and worship on his own.

 

He wanted to take communion. He finds value in the corporate worship of like-minded people. We cut the apron strings a while ago (I usually am told what I missed seeing when I wasn't there, not what he didn't do because I was) and this was the first he had been to worship since the end of May.

 

I think the camp could have done better. If this is how they have done with my kid, what about the kid who isn't confident enough to ask because 'none of the other boys are doing it'? What about someone who says I don't need to worship with my family since I can go to vespers - it is non-denom, and isn't exactly the right fit, but it good enough and then feels unsatisfied?

 

We also studied that passage a few weeks ago. It seems to me that the apostles were well equiped to spread the message. And, didn't they return home or keep in touch with each other? I don't believe that my son is well-equiped yet and neither does he. Thus the need for corporate worship on occasion.

[Gunny2862]

I believe a Scout is Reverent, at best; Without regard to the circumstances in which he finds himself.

 

Yes, Scout son is working at Camp right now.

And would have attended Services Saturday night if he had known the Camp Director would be calling him during that service asking him to return Sunday morning after having previously given him the week off - after working the previous two and being a "Kampah"(Camper) last week.

Before the call he had planned not to sleep in, but to go to the early service and work in the Child care area, then to go to the youth program, then to work again in Child care, and finally to hang out with some church friends (We have a Saturday Service and Four on Sunday). And the pattern of attendance (when attending) above is common for him when not at Camp or out with his Patrol or Troop.

 

The fact that he has been unable to attend a service other than Camp Vespers is something that many of us who served in the military found common in our adult lives - even when there is a Chaplain he might not be available to you in the location in which you find yourself.

Just like that military member a Scout needs to take responsibility for their own spiritual growth and(in the Christian realm) be doing their own spiritual studies and working their own development.

 

And while I enjoy and need corporate worship, one should be able to forgo them for a limited period of time. And the ability to maintain ones faith in difficult or trying circumstances when largely alone is yet another reason why the POW's of the Hanoi Hilton and other POW's who came back with their faith intact are such great examples and heroes.