Religious services on overnight trips

[Trevorum]

I agree with Pack212 and others. The diversity of faiths within our troop is one reason we normally have our Chaplain and Chaplain's Aide do a troop service on campout Sunday mornings. It's not necessarily a "religious" service and certainly wouldn't meet the stringent Roman Catholic (or Muslim) requirements, but it does address the spirituality of the outdoors, in the BP sense of it. I just can't see myself expecting (or even asking) a Hindu scout to attend a Presbyterian worship, or vice versa.

[nolesrule]

I wasn't even going to bring up the points Lisabob and Trevorum have made and just stick to the existing situation, but the thought did cross my mind of how you would handle religious diversity beyond Catholic and Presbyterian choices if they were needed. The current solution doesn't seem scalable.(This message has been edited by nolesrule)

[Eagle92]

As I stated before, talk to the local Catholic priest, or better yet have the priest come talk to the committee. I know growing up, nondenominational services were OK by the IH for those trips where we were going to be really late coming home; usually summer camp and high adventure activities.

 

One of the best inter-faith services was done in the UK and we had a smorgasbord of faiths there; Catholic, Anglican, Presbyterian, Orthodox, Islamic, etc.

[Beavah]

As I stated before, talk to the local Catholic priest, or better yet have the priest come talk to the committee.

 

Yeh have to be a bit careful here, mate.

 

There are some priests and diocese who are very strict about da obligation to attend Sunday Mass for their members. It's come up in a number of places I know.

 

Of course, they can always charter a troop of their own, eh?

 

Beavah

 

[SMT224]

We are sponsored by a Catholic Church, and well over half of the Scouts are Catholic. We usually get back so Scouts can attend the 11:30 Mass, but a few times a year we attend Mass near where we camp. When we do this, everybody attends. Years ago, we made the mistake of just pulling the Catholic Scouts to go to Mass, and then discovering that they really didn't need to go to Mass 'cause their parents allegedly told them they didn't need to go. So now we all go and that's that. I let the non-Catholics know that I'm not Catholic either and lightening hasn't stuck once in the past ten years I've been doing this so they can just relax and enjoy the celebration of God.

 

I would actually prefer to do a Scouts own on Sunday morning in the beauty and quiet of our campsite, but attending Mass is absolutely critical for many of the Scout parents. Some will not allow their son to join us on a camping trip unless we can guarantee they will either attend Mass on the camping trip or be back in time for Mass at our Church. So, that's what we do.

 

[nolesrule]

SMT224, what would you do with a scout that refuses to attend mass? Just curious.

[SMT224]

nolesrule -

 

So far that has not happened as going is so much part of the Troop culture, and is full embraced and led by the Scout Leadership. Such a refusal would first be dealt with by the PL, and then the SPL/ASPL. I would only be called in if these efforts failed. I think I would first try to understand why, and then discuss how we are all bound by the Scout Law, and that's that. Most kids go along with what the other kids are doing.

[Hal_Crawford]

Would you include in your discussion the fact that BSA policy precludes a scout from being forced to attend a church of a faith other than his own? More to the point, that he is within his rights and you are in the wrong?

 

That the choice of service is based on the majority of adult leaders is just wrong. Your troop has created an atmosphere of group coercion that is not in keeping with BSA policy or the Scout Law (as it does not respect the beliefs of others). If you cannot accommodate the religious preferences of all the scouts, including the choice not to participate, then you should drop the policy of attending services altogether.

 

Does your Presbyterian CO know that you are coercing Protestant youth to attend Catholic Mass? What would you do if a Jewish or Muslim boy wanted to join your troop? Could you accommodate there beliefs and obligations as well? Would you expect them to attend what a Jewish friend of mine called "a ceremony of ritual cannibalism"? I

 

Let me put it a different way, how would you and the other Catholic scouters, scouts and their parents respond if the CO mandated that the troop be required to attend Presbyterian services on camp outs? That would make more sense than the troops current practice.

 

I would suggest that the troop committee should discuss the unintended consequences of this policy and revise it before there is a real problem.

 

YIS,

Hal

[Eagle1982]

Wow, I didn't know Catholic's and Protestants were of different religions and faith systems.

 

I like a boy run service at the campsite whenever possible. I really don't like the services put on at most summer camps where they pray to mother earth instead and great powers/spirits, those, IMHO, are speaking to different religions and faiths.

 

[Narraticong]

Faith is a very personal issue. Just because a whole troop attends a religious service together there is no guarantee that any individual will gain anything from it. How many boys are sitting politely through the service but in reality are dreaming of the good Sunday night meal they will have when they get home?

 

There is no requirement or even an encouragement from BSA that we must worship together as Scouts. There are traditions, as we see from the many reports here. To me, it makes much more sense to encourage Scouts to practice their faith on a personal level. Encourage them to attend services for whatever faith they might be part of. Encourage them to bring with them on outings whatever religious items or writings might help them practice their faith while away from home.

 

If a group of Catholic Scouts has a need to attend Mass, then Catholic adults should be present on the outing in sufficient numbers to make that happen. If others wish to worship together in camp, then they are free to do so. But I really do not believe any Scout should be forced to attend any religious gathering.

 

As for "Scouts Own" services, I find them generally to be so watered down and generic that I can not find any value to them. I would rather worship with those who hold beliefs similar to mine, or to just pray on my own. As a Christian, for me to take part in a religious service which has no "Gospel" message is just wrong. But how will a devout Jew or Muslim feel being forced to listen to the good news of Jesus? I imagine the same as I feel without it. So to those who are truly devout in our faith, whatever it may be, a watered down Scout's Own is meaningless.

 

As Scouts, faith is a requirement. As leaders, I believe our duty is to encourage our boys to practice their own faith. As a Christian, I can best do that by trying to live an openly Christian life. I can be seen by the boys reading my Bible while sitting near the campfire. I can be seen praying before meals. I can be heard thanking God for the beautiful weather.

 

Just as we try to set good examples of the other eleven Laws, we should set an outward and obvious example of the twelfth. My boys know I regularly attend church. I encourage earning the Relgious Emblems. In Scoutmaster minutes, I sometimes mention how faith has gotten someone through a difficult time.

 

If we live as examples, forcing boys to attend a "Scouts Own" really becomes meaningless. Rather, let them be encouraged by the good examples set by their leaders.

 

Ken

[Hal_Crawford]

Eagle 1982:

Tell that to the Lutheran (Missouri Synod if I recall) minister who was almost defrocked (probably not the right word) for participating in an interfaith service at Ground Zero. Some Protestant denominations don't even play well with other Protestants.

 

Our scout camp offers Catholic and Protestant services in the camp and there is a reservation wide (5 camps) Jewish Sabbath service. Attendance is optional and most from our troop choose not to participate. The reservation chaplain is a retired Monsignor. For a while the Jewish services were led by a guy named Bishop.

 

I have been to, in fact I have conducted Mother Earth/Great Spirit/Mountains and Trees services to try and do something that would work with the religious diversity of our troop. Lately I have come to agree with you that they address a whole different belief system and are not a valid substitute for our scouts' various religions. I also wonder how American Indians feel about us co-opting and/or parodying their belief systems for our "interfaith services".

 

There are no easy answers to any of this. Oh, did I mention that one of our scout's parents recently told me that she and her son are Pagans? They attend a Unitarian church which accepts them and their beliefs. Where does he fit into this equation? Maybe the mother Earth service is closest to his belief system.

 

My grandmother (who was born around 1885) once told me that in polite company you never discuss religion or politics. Smart lady.

 

Hal

[sandspur]

Isnt there a way around the two deep leadership issue here? Of course, beavah was right if the Protestant leaders get off their rears and camp with the troop, the issue disappears. Still, a church service seems to be a public occasion. The scouts attending a church service with a single protestant scouter are hardly alone with said scouter. They are in a public place with dozens of other adults and clergy around. Maybe not registered to the troop, but still.

So I ask the group, is a group of several scouts attending a public worship service with a single scouter a YPG violation?

 

[True Believer]

OK, just to pour some water on the heat I see generating on this thread......

NO ONE is FORCING or Coercing anyone to attend a particular denomination. If a Scout says, I don't want to go, someone will stay outside with him, within the parameters of BSA mandated two deep leadership. So far, no one has taken that position, probably because they are not being forced to do anything but sit and be quiet.

 

Beevah is correct, in my mind: If you have a problem with your son going to a Catholic Church because of the two deep leadership mandate, then step up to the plate and go camping with us. Take your son elsewhere. Otherwise, out of respect, courtesy, kindness and reverence, understand that the Catholic scouts must go to mass, to do their duty to God. If there are not enough Protestant parents on the camping trip, we must all go to the Catholic Church, out of obedience to the BSA youth protection mandate.

 

This is not an easy issue. It is not one that can be wished away by a Scouts Own Service.

I appreciate all of your comments which I will take to my Committee, including those posted hereafter.

 

I value all of you, highly.

 

And, yes, our Presbyterian Charter organization knows exactly what the committee rule is (see the first post in this thread), and the church elders have accepted it.

[OldGreyEagle]

"Would you expect them to attend what a Jewish friend of mine called "a ceremony of ritual cannibalism"?"

 

I am sure many friends of many faiths can charterize the practices of faiths other than their in many ways but I am trying to figure out what this revelation has with the topic at hand, help anyone?(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

[nolesrule]

It's not really relevant to this discussion, other than to point out that it is inappropriate for a Jew to be present at a Catholic mass (from a Jewish religious perspective). It is outright forbidden for Orthodox Judaism, though it's extremely difficult to be an observant Jewish scout unless the troop has a Jewish CO... and that's not easy to pull off successfully except in areas with a large Jewish population.