How do you handle this?

[BadenP]

The idea that adult leaders can really supervise every boys computer games on a trip is just plain ludicrous. Nowadays most of these games contain innappropriate content, so where do you draw the line, shooting prostitutes in Grand Theft Auto or wiping out bystanders in some of the other games? The problem is that boys will be boys and if you allow these type of events on camping trips one or more will take advantage and play these MA games right under your nose or in some area out of sight, and thats just a fact. The problem is that too many scouters are too lazy to plan an evening campfire program of constructive activities and these games are like babysitters for them so they can go off to shoot the bull, drink coffee and smoke, a similiar problem in our high tech culture today.

[Mafaking]

 

 

There seems to be no personal accountability on the scouts or their families who brought this stuff.

 

 

I think this is a big deal. There are no R movies in my house to bring. There are no mature video games in my house to bring. The scouts who brought them should be identified to the Troop Committee. The scouts who brought the prohibited material should be addressed.

 

My guess is that the scouts who brought this material are the older scouts whose parents have ascended in the troop's hierarchy be it committee or program to have sway over what's really bad and just not ideal scout behavior.

 

I would pack my bags to leave this troop as well. Not because the material was present, that's adolescent poor judgment. Not because the SM's didn't check every single game. It's the adult's reaction to the event that would irk me. Bring out the culprits whose judgment was lacking and let's address the issue. No response, no accountability; the troop leadership is then lacking in an area I hold dear to scouting. Integrity!

 

I admire the scout who spoke up. That took courage.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Eamonn]

"The problem is that too many scouters are too lazy to plan an evening campfire program of constructive activities and these games are like babysitters for them so they can go off..."

Of course back when I was a Scout they sent us out on a wide game in the hope that we all got lost for a couple of hours!

Ea.

[Gunny2862]

Scouter's plan Campfire's???

What do the Boys do?

 

Why would I plan a Campfire after I've shown them how to do it?

I think pushups for not reacting to my commands are next on that road...

 

Where's the nearest Young Marines group?

Oh, no Incentive PT allowed there either?

 

Guess I'll just keep on Scouting...

[Eamonn]

Mafaking

I think everyone will agree that someone along the line messed up.

Each of us has values that we hold near and dear, some things that might upset me? Might not upset you?

I for example can't watch movies with blood and gore in, in fact if I know it's coming I'll close my eyes real tight.

I'm not that good with movies where the dog dies at the end either! Yes the tear ducts get a bit of a work out.

I respect your point of view.

If this upsets you? You have every right to be upset.

I however don't see myself acting as a policeman at each and every event. As in my view a Scout is to be trusted and working along them lines, I shouldn't have too.

I don't trust the inmates in jail, they have lost the right to be trusted.

But if we want the Scouts we lead to be trusted we have to trust them.

Ea.

[BadenP]

I think Eamonn that Trust needs to be earned not freely given. When a group of boys get together the dominant ones tend to take control of the entire group both good and bad, I am sure you have read Lord of the Flies. The high tech world of today opens up all sort of temptations to our youth that were not accessible when we were that young, and boys 12-18 are little more than a bunch of raging hormones who act first and think about the consequences later.

 

Gunny if you pass all of your responsibilities off on the boys what kind of example do you think you are modeling? I will give you a hint, not a good one.

[Gunny2862]

BadenP,

WAIT just a minute!!!

 

YES, I CAN plan and lead everything that goes on in my Troop.

But if the BOYS are ACTUALLY leading and responsible and learning from those activities, and I am available to, and capable of mentoring them in growing their abilities.

AND if I ensure that their SAFETY is considered in their planning and in the performance of their plan then JUST EXACTLY WHERE AM I "pass(ing) all of your responsibilities off on the boys" and "what kind of example do you think you are modeling? I will give you a hint, not a good one." Exactly how am I setting a bad example by doing what BSA says is my role.

Why would I plan a Campfire if the Boys can?

 

How is a Troop where I plan and lead every activity boy led?

From all of my Training in Scouting I am to SUPERVISE, and MENTOR, NOT plan and lead events.

 

(edit)You know, maybe I should cook and clean and set-up their tents and tie all their knots for them too.

 

Where's Kudu when you need him?

 

(This message has been edited by Gunny2862)

[Eamonn]

BadenP,

When a Lad joins a Troop, one of the first things he works on is the Oath and Law.

While maybe adult expectations and understanding of this is a lot different than that of a little fellow?

We the adults do at that time map out what the expectations are.

The workings of a Troop are the workings of the real world brought down to be "Boy Sized".

 

I hate how it seems we always turn to Fast Food or Automobiles when we need an analogy but here I go.

Driving a car is a privilege.

The test to get a driving license is not that tough and covers the basics needed to get by.

I know some states have now required that young people have to drive so many hours before they are allowed to take the test. But if they wait until they are older this isn't a requirement.

We don't require that someone prove that they aren't going to speed or drive under the influence of drugs or alcohol, we take their word that they are going to be a good and safe driver.

I think that I'm far more lightly to give trust freely and trust people up until they do something that makes me feel that they can't be trusted.

Older Scouts in most cases have been around for a while, they have benefited from all the good stuff the program teaches.

Hopefully they have also earned more trust than the new guy.

I have over the years have had my share of Lads who have flaws.

PL's that may have a tendency to rule with an iron fist or be a bit of a bully.

I have had mixed feeling about allowing them to take a Patrol away without adult supervision.

But with open two way communication (And maybe the odd hidden threat!) We managed to get by without any real problem.

I don't think that the kids of today have any more or less

"raging hormones" than you or I had!

I agree that there is far more access to material that might feed into this, then when I was a Lad.

But I feel that we are a lot more open about this sort of thing than we used to be.

My Irish Catholic parents never once in my entire life talked about sex. Much of what I did learn was from older Scouts at Scout Camp.Of course there was never any talk about responsibility.

With my son, even though it wasn't easy! We sat down and went over "Things"!!! Talked about what is and what isn't acceptable and again as his parent I laid out my expectations, he of course as he grew up looked at these, at times challenged these and now that he is an adult has his own thoughts and values.

This just doesn't apply to sex, but too almost everything!

Of course we haven't sat down and had "The Talk" about most things, but from a very early age he knew that hitting or harming someone else wasn't acceptable, he knew that taking stuff that didn't belong to him was a big no no (I wish he'd think of this when he takes my stuff!)

I'm sure that whoever brought the "M" Rated games knew that they were pushing it and not doing the right thing.

Of course not knowing all the details I can't say what action I'd want to take.

Clearly someone has let the side down.

Eamonn.

[xlpanel]

I am going to assume that they were playing a FPS game against each other, and it probably was Halo.

 

There is nothing M about Halo competitive play. There is no language in that part of the game, other than what the competitors say themselves. The blood is blue or green.

 

And now the parents are trying to act like this was the first time Jimmy was exposed to that? I can assure you that the conversations and actions of the competitors are a whole lot worse than the game will ever be, and with every game.

 

I routinely hear 14-15 year old kids cussing the hell out of the games/design/tv etc as they play. I can attest that 33% of the words out of their mouths today are swearwords when playing.

 

Why don't we just also ban the kid from talking to people, as I bet every kid in his troop would 'if rated' recieve a R of M.

[JJJJ]

The bottom line is that the parents were given an expectation that their son would not be exposed to this and he was. If it had been mine and there had been no remorse or apology, I would have taken it a lot farther up the chain than the SM.

 

The qualities of the videogame are irrelevant. If the parents had been told they would only be rate E and they were E10 (mild), it would still be a violation.

 

XP, if the people you hang around with talk that way, it doesn't mean the Scout in question is also exposed to that. And the exposure can't be undone.

[Beavah]

Exposure? Violations? With all da angst this stuff seems to be generatin' you'd have thunk that we were talkin' about some other kind of "exposure" and "violation" than an animated video game, eh?

 

I reckon we're all in agreement that da troop shouldn't have promised that they'd supervise game ratings if they weren't able to do that effectively.

 

At the same time, I know we advertise Scouting as clean, wholesome fun for boys. And it is! But that doesn't mean darling little Johnny isn't going to be "exposed" to his tentmate occasionally outing with a four-letter word when the tent is leakin' or the Raccoon visits in the middle of the night. It's a bit over the top to start thinkin' that such "exposure" to a "violation" of the 11th point of the Law is going to be something that will ruin a poor innocent adolescent for life.

 

Scoutin' is good for boys, and teaches 'em good morals and values. But the lads are going to be "exposed" to other boys and other families, and other boys are goin' to act like other boys, eh? Animated cartoon violence might not be somethin' to encourage or seek out, but 15 minutes of "exposure" isn't goin' to ruin a lad for life.

 

Boys are boys, eh? God doesn't make 'em in "fragile."

 

Beavah

 

[xlpanel]

Lets try this test: Does the boy attend school?

 

If yes, nothing on the boy scout campout is going to be any more improper than he sees/hears at school.

 

Why?

 

The Same kids with the 'dirty mouths' or 'dirty ideas' that "poisoned" lil ol johnny at Boy Scouts also attend his school, and are probably his friends at said school.

 

Do you think they limit their impressive vocabulary to scout campouts only?

 

As the clear answer is no, Johnny needs to be homeschooled immediately for his own protection. Of course, when he moves out into the real world he will be totally shocked and will withdraw due to it scaring him.

[sheldonsmom]

XL, I think you are missing the point about telling parents one thing and allowing another. My concern was and is that alone. Little Johnny Boy Scout may very well be homeschooled (mine are, just for the record). My son is also, at age 17, in the Army Reserve awaiting boot camp. It is not that a scout was exposed to something like this. The issue is about ADULTS telling parents one thing and seeing nothing wrong when rules are broken.

 

I expect Scouters to be trustworthy as well as scouts, don't you?

[xlpanel]

Well, making a mistake like that isn't desired for. But it is a ...so what? moment.

 

When those parents that complained let their kid out of the house (if they even do) he can be exposed to this. If he is ever let out to see a friend, he will be exposed to this.

 

Its like a "Yeah, we're sorry lady, but we can't do anything" moment.

 

The Blame rests on too many people...

 

The Scoutmaster for not supervising the game

The Scout for bring a banned game

The Scout's Parents for not telling their scout not to bring the game

The Scout Troop for not reporting the game to scoutmaster immediately

The Scout who is mad for not reporting the game immediately

 

By the time we punish everyone who could have ended the action, the whole troop is in trouble.

 

And I am to understand that the upset scout was not chained to his chair in front of the xbox? He was free to walk off if the content was objectionable? If so, he can't complain anyone 'forced' him to play the game. If not so, he can complain about kidnapping and false imprisonment.

 

Parents always assume its never their lil angel's fault. Always blame someone else, never lil johnny.

[tonys]

Our Troop has these "fun nights" every other year or so I hate them but the boys like them. They do socialize and bond at them. We adult leaders try to keep an eye on what is played. and the rules are no M games and no R movies period. The older boys who always ask for exceptions (they don't get them) are the ones who enforce the rules. The boys can hide things from adults buy the youth leaders seem to know what is going on, and they at least in our troop the boys do enforce the rules more often than the adults can. I guess it is the old saying a boy can fool an adult but he can't fool another boy. My objection is the leaders response. they should have apologized.

You can't be everywhere all the time the boys need to enforce the rules.

 

Tony