How do you handle this?

sheldonsmom · June 7, 2009

After reading the topic on pornography, I am wondering about another problem.

A local troop has an annual "fun campout" to which boys may bring electronic devices (game systems, ipods, tv, movies). The rule was that no games may be rated above teen and no movies above pg13. Parents of new scouts were told that this would be strictly adhered to.

After the campout, a scout came home and told his mother that many games of mature rating had been played and a few r rated movies had been aired. He confessed to his parents that he had played one of the games and it was bothering him because he knew he was not allowed to play these and it was against family policy. He was duly punished by his parents. His mother called some of the adult leaders who were present to inquire about the movies and games. The first thing every leader said was that the son had played the game so who is he to complain that they were there? There was never an acknowledgement that the rules set by the adults had been broken by the boys with the full awareness of the adult leaders, only a comment that the parents had no right to complain since their boy had broken the rules, too.

The family left the troop very angry at the attitude of the adult leadership.

John-in-KC · June 7, 2009

1) I'd have pulled my son as well.

2) In the here and now, sounds to me like it's time for a serious talk amongst the Troop Committee and the SM about rules and consequences.

3) "Why wasn't the SPL and ASPLs maintaining the set standards?" would be my first question as a CC or COR to Mr Scoutmaster.

SMT224 · June 7, 2009

I'm surprised the adult leaders came up with such a lame excuse.

This is like adults giving a party specifically for teenagers where alcohol ends up being available telling the parents of a drunk kid that their son had drank, so who is he to complain that there was alcohol there? And that the parents had no right to complain since their boy had broken the rules, too. This kind of BS wouldn't fly anywhere.

There was clearly an expectation that no "M" games would be played, so all of leaders - adults and Scouts should have done their utmost to see that this happened.

I would suggest a Committee / PLC / parents meeting, and if the parents who pulled their son out could summon the strength, attend and let all know why they left, and how disappointed they are with the Troop. They put their trust in the Troop, and clearly that trust was broken.

NeilLup · June 7, 2009

I occasionally write about the time when I was a Scout and dinosaurs roamed the earth. This will be another of thise times.

I remember going on Scout campouts. There were, of course, no personal electronics but we did have magazines and books. On occasion, some older Scout would bring pornographic material. Stuff like Playboy. Did we read it? You bet we did! As another leader write eloquently on this list, it was our duty as boys to try to sneak looks a pornography. It was the duty of the leaders to try to stop us. We both did our best to do our duty.

I just mention this to indicate that I find it hard to call this "Shocking!! Shocking!!"

In the case mentioned, I wonder where are the SPL, the PLs and the PLC. As I see it, there are at least a few alternatives about the no "mature" games and no "R" movies restriction.

a) This was the idea of the PLC

b) This was the idea of the SM and the Committee and the PLC willingly signed on and supported it

c) This was the idea of the SM and the Committee and the PLC was told "If you want to have a 'fun' campout with electronics, then this is the restriction." The PLC said "Oh, all right, we want the fun campout, so we'll go along with the restriction."

d) The PLC was told "We're going to have a 'fun' campout and these are the restrictions." They were not invited to give input or to buy-in.

e) There is no PLC or it's just a figurehead with no real leadership role.

Depending upon the role and status of the PLC, the situation can be determined. It is likely that it was older boys that brought this material. Possibly PLC members. Certainly the PLC members knew about it and could have asked or directed that it stop and/or informed the SM and other adult leaders when the incidents occurred. It seems very unlikely that the material was brought only by younger boys. So there was every opportunity for the PLC to effect the restrictions in place for the campout.

I believe that the response by the SM and other Troop adults is gross and completely inappropriate. The peer pressure on a younger Scout in a situation like that is extreme. If the youth leaders didn't act, how can a younger Scout be expected to do so. Also, the response by the adult leaders suggests that the problem was not bringing the material but rather complaining about it or remaining when it was being used. By that definition, virtually every Troop member has a similar problem.

I don't blame the parents for leaving the Troop but my reason would be very different. The PLC didn't do their duty and the Troop leadership seems to have no idea about how to address that or else doesn't care.

To me, some Scoutmaster's Conferences with the PLC members and/or Board of Review for non-advancing Scouts with the PLC members would be the appropriate action. Find out what happened and why youth leadership was deficient. Then correct it.

Beavah · June 8, 2009

Yah, it's tough, eh? While the adult and youth leadership blew it if they made a promise up front, one of da things that's hard these days is that the game and MPAA ratings aren't well accepted by many families. Even organizations, eh? Some PG-13 movies are awful for kids, some are just Harry Potter. Some R-rated movies are very explicit, some just have a single scene of vile language which is easily muted. Game and video makers try to "up" their rating artificially for better sales.

I helped a Catholic unit tryin' to find a movie to go see. They used their own Catholic rating system. Some PG movies were rated Objectionable and some R movies were rated fine.

So while for one family it may be a big deal, for another it isn't, and for different families different things can be a big deal. Makes it hard for the lads and adults to keep a consistent standard even when they're tryin'. And I confess I don't even know or understand da game rating system, nor would I be able to ID a game or most movies by sight in terms of their ratings. Best might be when the adults can view a movie or game first, eh? But even that's no guarantee.

I wouldn't be too hard on the troop leaders. It's a tough thing to get right, especially if you're supposed to be monitorin' things all night and yeh have boys of different ages for whom different things are acceptable. While I appreciate what da parents are sayin', I think a better tack as a parent is to say "I understand how hard it is, so next time I will volunteer to help chaperone instead of complaining afterward."

I also reckon that with Boy Scout aged boys, it seems sort of odd to me that a boy would choose to play a game he knew he wasn't supposed to would then turn around and blame others for it. As a parent, I'd be havin' a firmer conversation with my son than with da troop leaders. He knew what was up and did it anyway. Blamin' others isn't fair when he made a choice.

Personally, though, my real feelin' is that it's best just not to run these events. I don't think the video-game fest really contributes much to a Scoutin' program. Rather than bringin' boys together as a team (the way lasertag does, lol!) it separates them into individuals engaged with da box. And the diversity of youth and parent opinion only makes it likely you'll get in trouble.

Beavah

SMT224 · June 8, 2009

Beavah - I agree that it may be best simply not to have video-game fests, as there is just too much room for problems to crop up.

However, I disagree with you about the leaders and Scouts have a hard time knowing which games were "M" and which were "T". It's very obvious as it printed on the box and game CD or cartridge. That's like saying you can't tell the difference between a beer and a coke because they both come in a can and are carbonated. The kids know they're playing an M game. So, yea, I'd be hard on all the leaders. If they couldn't control what games were being played, then they shouldn't have advertised it as Scout friendly.

And as far as the kid playing an M game, yea, he should have walked away, just like an underage kid at a party should walk away from a beer if someone offers it to him. If the expectation was put forth by by the Troop that there would be "no games rated above teen", then all the leaders should have ensured that expectation was met. The fact they did not do that, and then put all the blame on the kid was a significant mistake. They need to be held responsible for their actions.

sheldonsmom · June 8, 2009

I want to clarify one point. The scout did NOT blame the others for his actions. He confessed because he knew he had done wrong and should be punished for his own actions. The mother did punish him. The parents were upset that the games were there in the first place. Isn't it ironic that the only boy to be punished for breaking a troop rule is the one that confessed. The adult leadership's attitude was more that the parents knew the rules would be broken and it was no big deal. If the boy had not said anything to his mother, she would not have known, eh? It took courage to say, I have done wrong and take the punishment. Isn't that showing responsibility and leadership? Yes, he should have never played the game in the first place, but he owned up to his error.

jtswestark · June 8, 2009

>>Parents of new scouts were told that this would be strictly adhered to.

Beavah · June 8, 2009

Yah, I'm still back to the best choice for the parents being to volunteer to help chaperone the next event, eh?

I've been to a few of these videogame fests. With bleeping boxes all over da place and kids switchin' games in and out, there's no way for adults to "guarantee" anything without bein' a police state (strip searchin' lads at the door, or posting an adult guard at each game box who must decide whether the chip matches the box it's in - no boys allowed to touch chips on their own without supervision!

Can't happen. So makin' the guarantee at the adult level will never work because it's not somethin' adults can guarantee.

That means yeh need buy-in from the youth leaders to what many will see as a very arbitrary restriction (because they're old enough to play such games, or their family lets them because the most challenging/fun games are in the upper ratings). Buying into what seems like an arbitrary restriction is not what teenagers do best, eh? It means cashin' in on a lot of adult relationship good will, and having a really effective and responsible PLC. Not all troops have both of those.

So I'm back to "best not to go there."

On a parental side, I reckon if a troop offers one of these it's best to view it the way yeh view high school dances, eh? Yeh trust that there are reasonable chaperones and rules, but yeh also recognize that some kids will bring alcohol or worse, some kids will dance inappropriately or sneak out into a dark hallway to go necking or whatnot. Yeh have to trust your kid to do the right thing (or never let 'em go to a dance/grow up, I suppose). Compared to a middle school or high school dance, a troop video game night is pretty tame, eh? And both dances and game nights are always lookin' for more chaperones!

Beavah

Eamonn · June 8, 2009

I just posted in the spin off thread.

I'll try not to repeat myself!

It seems clear that someone messed up.

One sad, bad thing about messing up is that most times you can't un-mess the mess.

The games have been played they can't turn back the clock and start over.

I have to wonder what the parent was so upset about?

Clearly as a family they aren't in favor of these sort of games.

If they are upset that their son was exposed to this material?

They should without a doubt pull their son out of this Troop.

Were they upset with the leaders response?

I have to admit to finding it very lame.

But I have to also admit to not knowing very much about video games.

I would have no choice but to go with the rating on the boxes. Still having said that I think that maybe if a Scout were to show me that one particular game wasn't really bad, I might be persuaded to let it go. I kinda think a lot of things would depend on the situation, the age and maturity of the Scouts and game itself.

OJ has a fair amount of these games but seems to play American Football, Hockey, and a game about stealing cars?? A lot. -I'm not in favor of anyone stealing cars, but it seems so far out that? I also know that my son is not going to go out and start stealing cars.

Back when he was attending Catholic School there was a Nintendo game that he had that dealt with something supernatural, his cousin gave him a book that had back-doors and some sort of codes for the game. One of the Nuns seen the book, she took it from him and spent 45 minutes on the phone telling me that I allowing my son to become exposed to Devil worship. - I found that to be a little over the top.