No Young Adult Leaders?

[Eagle92]

Scouter,

In reference to the blanket policy, I am in reference to national policy. As for CO. I am against such blanket policies BUT AS PER THE CHARTER AGREEMENT the CO can make their own policies as long as their in agrement with National polciies. IF they want to make them more stringent in reference to leaders, they can.

 

As for me getting upset, this is a electronic campfire and we are discussing things. Plus this is also part of the other thread this came from. In refernce to maturity, I hate to say it but I've seen adults act worse than kids on some campouts.

 

Gern said it best, judge by their character and their actions, not demographics.

[Hal_Crawford]

We have three ASMs in the gray area, all Eagles, all college students. They are only active during summer but they are a great help. One has gone with the troop to summer camp twice as a leader and will again this year. The second went on our high adventure trek last summer and the third will go to both camp and high adventure this year. They know the program and are well respected by the scouts.

 

Aren't there a lot of Army/Marine NCOs in this age range? They can be trusted with a squad in combat but not a carload of boy scouts?

 

That said, I agree that the CO can decide who will and who will not be leaders in their unit. Given what has happened in the unit in the thread from which this one was spun (scouter arrested for child molestation), it is understandable if they have overreacted and perhaps thrown the baby out with the bath water. I think this would happen to some degree in any unit in a similar situation.

 

 

 

[sandspur]

Hal:

The point about 18-20 year olds serving in the military is frequently brought up, occasionally even by me!

I too see no logical reason why a 19 year old can shoulder an M-4 and die for our country but not drink a beer. 21 is arbitrary. Blue laws are still with us.

However, I am infamous for seeing both sides of an argument. The counterpoint here is that having 18-19 year olds in the military has a lot to do with physical maturity, physical stamina for combat and trainability.

Even in the military, how many 19-20 year olds are truly supposed to be on their own in a combat situation without more experienced NCOs nearby or in the chain of command and if it happens (as I am sure it does) is it by intent and planned that way?

More to my point, the military trains those young men very, very intensively to deal with the situations they will encounter as leaders. Drivers Ed is not even remotely comparable.

Again, let me say I have no problem with 18-20 year old leaders and value them (one of my sons is one) but I can support driving restrictions in the troop.

[Beavah]

I think you're getting upset over an imagined controversy created by you and Beavah reading between the lines

 

I don't think I was tryin' to create controversy, nor was I imaginin' things.

 

Sometimes I pick a quote just because it triggers a thought that might start a new conversation, but I'm not really respondin' to that person. Prior to this thread we had a few folks in different threads comment about not usin' 19 year olds for stuff, or not allowin' any non-parent ASMs at all. So please don't think I was targetin' Scouter760 to stir controversy.

 

I will admit that old folks discriminatin' against young folks is a minor peeve of mine. I also think it teaches everyone the wrong thing. At 18 they are adults in da eyes of the law, and they need to know that and act like it, eh? Continuin' to treat 'em as little kids does them no favors, and costs us a great resource. But that's just MNSHO. I'm outside of da range of Baby Boomers (and now Gen-Xers) who are into da age discrimination thing.

 

I also am a countercultural curmudgeon when it comes to da whole fearful American bit. I'm really not at all afraid of what a 19 year old Eagle Scout I've known and worked with for 8 years is goin' to do, driving or otherwise. Can't imagine why anybody would be.

 

So I vote with Gern, who said it more succinctly than I. Evaluate da person, not the stereotype or demographic averages.

 

As to sandspur's bit, after 7 years of scoutin' a lad has had a lot more time with us than a recruit has in basic trainin', and three full years of drivin' experience in all kinds of weather. Again, lots more than they get before bein' handed an M-16 or a howitzer.

 

Yah, at least for us northerners! I'd never trust one of da southerners to drive anywhere. Not enough experience with real road conditions, eh?

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[sandspur]

Beavah:

Well, I always did agree with 95% of your position here and after more thought I am coming around on the driver issue. I still will not argue with troops wanting to establish limits for drivers. However, I am less sure of how I would cast my vote if it came up in committee.

After all, our troop uses busses, and only some scouters have the CDL necessary to drive them. I have declined to get a CDL even after I was asked to because although I have not had an accident in 30 years or a ticket since high school, I am just not sure of my experience level in driving a vehicle that big with 20 scouts aboard. But that is a personal decision. I drive scouts in my own vehicle all the time.

 

[acco40]

Some random comments:

 

1. The CO/COR chooses adult leaders. Not the troop itself (at least on paper).

 

2. My oldest "Scout" is 48 years old. He makes 30 ft camp fires, has been know to light off firecrackers, etc. Nothing to serious but I treat him more like one of the boys - but he is a good driver.

 

3. Shouldn't all leaders be judged on their individual characteristics instead of global stereotype? It is easier to let a blanket policy make your decisions than to "get personal" and judge individuals.

 

4. The point about 18-20 year olds serving in the military is frequently brought up, occasionally even by me! In a combat vehicle, such as the M1 Abram MBT, the youngest/least senior soldier is the driver. Studies have shown that the Army has experienced fatalities and injuries due to the fact that these 19-21 year old "drivers" act like civilian drivers and hot dog - jumping sand berms utilizing the 1500 HP engine. Their driving skills are top notch; their common sense is not.

 

5. I teach my children (14, 17 & 18) to know the driver and their ability before they get in a vehicle. My father taught me this - only with aircraft. When I was 19-21 I worked at a private airport. I flew some and was offered "rides" by many different pilots on occasion. I took them up on their offers quite frequently. My father sat me down one day and very rationally explained that it was in my best interest to know a little about the piloting skills of the folks, many weekend fliers, who took me up.