Cell Phone Policy Contradicts Family Policy

[Beavah]

Yah, sorry mmhardy, that section of da Troop Committee handbook is referrin' only to the Annual Program Plan (that comes out of da PLC annual planning meeting).

 

It's not referring to operatin' policies of the troop, which by and large are set by the Troop Committee and the Scoutmaster, and the boys to the extent those other groups feel comfortable delegatin' that.

 

I really dislike playin' book quote games. Da BSA materials are not a rulebook and are not the Bible. They offer slightly different suggestions in different places and over time because different people wrote and edited 'em and there's more than one way to skin a kid. They expect unit scouters to be good, intelligent people who know their CO and their kids and can use their brain without training wheels.

 

Off da cuff, I enjoy bein' with da units that limit electronics (either by "bans" or "education at gunpoint") more than the others. Just my observation. The lads have actually learned how to be with each other and have fun, be alert to their environment, they tend to be more willing to engage in new stuff. More social. More like scouts.

 

Which gets us to da other form of veto, eh? The "I don't want to be with you" veto. As in "You guys can set whatever rules you want about iPhones, but if yeh want me to spend my weekend with you as an adult then it better be 'none'." Da Boy Scout materials can't take that veto away, because we don't own the Scoutmaster's time.

 

Beavah

 

[BrentAllen]

Amen, Beavah. My time is very valuable to me. I'm willing to donate plenty to Scouting, but I can only take so much irritation.

 

This is also a safety issue, in my opinion. And I didn't even get into the "sexting" issues. Are we going to check every image on every cell phone before going on trips? Luckily, I don't have anyone fighting me on this issue in our Troop.

[Eagle1982]

 

I remember a IBM exec once telling me a story. IBM was like the picture below

__ __

| __ __ |

| __ __ | On one side you have customers

| __ X __ | On the other you have IBM employees

| __ __ | That X in the middle, is the salesman responsible for the acct

| __ __ |

|__ __| X is the buffer and conduit between customers and employees.

 

Now in a way, I see Scout events are similar, where the Scoutmaster is the conduit in the middle. Whichever adult is the "responsible" one or the SM for the weekend, needs to be kept in the loop, and know what's going on. There is a proper procedure, and to borrow a military term, chain of command. When you go outside this chain of command, there is often confusion and miscommunication.

 

We have had a lot of stories about scouts either with cell phones, or borrowed one from another, calling home, and no one informed the people responsible. This caused problems.

 

People talk about using cell phones as a tool. However, I have yet to hear them talk about a real plan or a use to do such. To have mock search and rescue operations, and communicate via cell phone would be a cool and fun Scout activity.

 

However: Calling to say you need more bread, or there is construction on a route or whatever is just a crutch for incomplete planning. While you can use the phone as a tool to make those calls, in the end did you make the Scout more dependent on technology and less on quality planning? Especially when the calls are as ridicules as the ones I hear in the grocery store all the time, "Should I get Jif or Skippy, 16 oz or 12 oz?" I guess part of leadership is making a decision, standing by it and accepting responsibility for it. I see too many people that rely on their phone to pass the buck in decision making, and they are not real leaders.

 

Am I worried that phones are here to stay, and Scouts won't know how to use them unless we teach them during Scout meetings? No, they probably can use them better then we can.

Am I worried about Courtesy and phones? Yes, In Japan, on the Subways, people don't talk on their cell phones, as it would be discourteous to the other riders.

Do we have to remind people about basic phone courtesy? Unfortunately, before business meetings, we have to do it all the time.

 

I've been involved in Church mission trips with Scout aged kids. Cell phones have always been banned from these trips. The mission trip leaders want the kids focused on the people they are helping, not focused on their friends at home. For Scouts doing service projects, shouldn't the same apply? For Scouts in camp, shouldn't we want their energy focused on working within their patrol to accomplish whatever their objectives are?

 

All that said, I'd like to see some Scout activities that make real use of a cell phone as a real tool. But for Scouts to have cell phones, and work outside the standard procedures and chain of command, I'm against it.

[Eagle1982]

My picture and spaced were messed up

 

__................__ |

| .|__......... __| ..|

| ...|__.......__| ...| On one side you have customers

| .....|__ X __| .....| On the other you have IBM employees

| ...|__.......__| ...| That X in the middle, is the salesman responsible for the acct

| .|__...........__| .|

|__...............__| X is the buffer and conduit between customers and employees.

[wingman115]

I have to agree with the Scout Master. There are enough issues to deal with with running a troop and you only have the boys for max an hour or two a week why should you have to compete with a cell phone. I personally think we would be much better off with out cell phones look at the disruption it causes in most families where the parents and the kids don't interact together what makes you think it wouldn't be any different on a Scouting event. I was dining out with my wife the other night when we noticed two parents and two children each sitting at the table but each one was on their own cell phone doing their own thing. What a shame the kids and the parents are so engaged with themselves that they don't talk to each other. We have developed a culture where people don't know how to talk to one another. What a shame. Stepping off soap box now thanks..

[mmhardy]

Eagle1982 et al,

 

If anyone wants a real life story of how using several cell phones during a high adventure trip averted a crisis then respond to me privately. I'll be glad to offer an outline of the incident.

[sailingpj]

I have skimmed through a couple pages of peoples posts, and read a lot of posts from parents and adult leaders, but none from actual scouts. I am a Sea Scout in California. On our ship we are allowed cell phones, we just can't use them when we are on watch, and if it rings when you are on watch the skipper will take it until you go on break. Now, I have found that having a cell phon with me only causes problems. My mom expects me to have it on all the time, and I get in trouble if I don't reply to her voice mail, or if it runs out of battery and I can't call her to tell her when to pick me up. Cell phones are a useful tool sometimes, but in my experience it has caused more problems then it solves.

[sandspur]

Looks like the cell phone issue has reached the point where no-one is convincing anyone else. To each his own and set your troop policy as you see fit.

The more disturbing sub thread to me was the thought that if troop policy contradicts family policy, family policy overrides, even if the scouts need to clandestinely override troop policy.

Unless troop policy directly impacts the safety of the scout or contravenes family morals (hard to imagine) parents need to adhere to troop policy. If the issue causes that much heartburn, the family needs to switch troops. The families that have their scout carry the cell phone anyway but tell the scout to just dont let the SM see it are a bigger worry to me than the cell phone.

My troop has several policies I dont particularly like. So I argue them in committee. But until (if ever) they change, we abide by them.

 

[tombitt]

Excuse the long post - this will be my last on this topic.

 

For the spirited and mostly Scout-like discussion of a difficult issue, I thank you. For those who felt the need to declare someone with a different opinion immature, a helicopter parent, an unworthy scout leader, or unethical - well, you weren't as effective. I urge you to respect open discussion.

 

Why didn't we choose a different troop due to the policy? Because the policy was essentially just made up a few months ago, and passed on verbally. It's implementation is spotty, and seems to change on the whims of the SM. Would have been better to engage the scouts (and maybe the parents) in a discussion, and write the darned thing down.

 

Am I telling my son to lie? Of course not. Again, my son is one of a few who are honest about the fact that they have cell phones. Of the parents who disagree with the policy, I'm the only one to engage the SM to discuss it. Give me some credit. The issue is between the SM and me, and I engaged as soon as I realized what was going on. I created this thread to better understand both sides. I feel that I could argue both sides of the issue now! That shows that there is a reasonable difference of opinion on a tough issue.

 

Even so, I encourage everyone to be open-minded about changes that are affecting our teenagers, and try to find ways to embrace and include what we can. I'll take one final thwack at this.

 

I'm concerned about a number of the arguments against scouts having cell phones. I found all of these, below, in this thread:

 

1) Scouts aren't trustworthy: They'll do things they aren't supposed to do

2) Scouts aren't courteous: They'll bother everyone around them

3) Scouts aren't obedient: They'll break any rules we put in place

4) Scouts aren't thrifty: They'll call pay phone services

5) Scouts aren't brave: They'll use it to call for mommy

6) Scouts aren't clean: They'll surf porn sites

 

In addition:

 

1) It ruins nature (OK, I get this)

2) We have to treat all scouts like 11-year olds (I totally disagree)

3) Cell phones won't work anyway in many locations (which makes this a non-issue, right?)

4) I don't need one/didn't have one 40 years ago (poor argument)

5) They can always just rely on adult leaders (not treating them like young adults)

6) Scout leaders don't have time to police cell phones (I understand this one)

 

What we might be failing to notice is that cell phones are a part of teenagers lives today whether we like it or not. Teenagers use cell phones for a type of social networking and communication we never had. We're worried about them calling mommy, when they probably are calling someone in their patrol (apparently, even the SPL who was breaking the policy this last weekend was using the phone to organize scouts). We worry about them texting their girlfriend, when they are just as likely texting a scout across camp, or tweeting on the cool scout things they are doing, or updating their daily blog on their trip. We worry they are looking at porn sites, when they are looking at the weather forecast. We worry they aren't focused on nature, when they are taking a picture with their phone camera. We worry they are playing video games, when they are going through their list of camp equipment. We don't worry about the possibility a scout will come across an accident, and have no way to call 911. Does this happen often? Of course not. Doesn't need to happen often to be worthwhile.

 

A few weeks ago my son was walking down the hallway at school looking at his Ipod. A teacher saw him and told him to "put that thing away." What she didn't know is he was updating his list of homework. This is the attitude that I'm worried about.

 

Can this tool be misused? Sure. So can knives, axes, matches, propane stoves, pencil and paper, books. Can't they get away from it for a few days? Sure. They can use pencil and paper to draw the things they see, keep their lists on pencil and paper, and rely on adults for the rest. Or, we can take this tool that is a part of their lives and include it in the scouting experience.

 

Can we have an electronics-free campout? Absolutely. We should also have more primitive campouts, without stoves, fancy tents, etc. Make it an adventure, a carrot rather than a stick. Make it a feature, and the scouts will love it! Make it a restriction and the scouts will just see it as that.

 

Worried they are spending too much time online? Ask them to update a patrol/troop blog (with text and pictures). Make someone responsible for monitoring the weather. Restrict use to leaders. Restrict use based on age. Earn use. Take away the privilege when there is too much abuse. Confiscate when there is abuse. Communicate to the parents about what you are trying to accomplish, and get their help. I think there are a lot of ideas more creative and helpful than "no tolerance". Remember my experience - my son was yelled at by the SM for using a phone post-scout meeting - to ensure he had a ride (he hadn't seen his sister's car outside). I want my son to continue on through Eagle, and this kind of thing makes it hard for me.

 

Scouting is either about building character and self-reliance, or it's about doing things the way old people want to do it (the way we did it when we were young). If it's the latter, scouting is doomed, IMHO.

 

That's my opinion about scouting and cell phones. But there is room for healthy debate, and I'm sure it will keep going, and going...

 

I'm hoping to help our SM develop a written, clear, fair, logical policy about cell phone use. This seat-of-the-pants policy is not working. I think there is a compromise here that gets what he is trying to accomplish more effectively than is happening today.

[Stosh]

If it is our job to get boys ready for the real world, this issue speaks volumes.

 

1) There's always going to be conflict between personal choice and decisions of the group.

 

2) Sneaking a cell phone in where it's banned, school, scouts, theater, etc. is not a good choice for scouts to have to make.

 

3) In the real world conceal carry permit holders still are not allowed to take their guns on an airplane.

 

4) Compromise is not an option.

 

5) Tough choice, rules of the parents vs. rules of the troop. Should the scout have to make the choice?

 

Every time someone tosses a pebble into a pond they are clueless to the impact that action makes. Sometimes the lessons we attempt to teach have adverse consequences on down the road. If one has a cell phone at a troop activity, it's not just a breaking of the rules, but also an issue of character development and the choices that are made and the consequences of such actions. In school, it may mean a reflection on the policies and respect for the educational system, and if it's a gun on an airplane it will probably mean federal prison time. How far does one push the issue to teach a child?

 

Stosh

[OldGrayOwl]

How about instead of relying on cell phones in an emergency (not really a good idea anyway, storms take down cell towers and then the entire network goes down), how about using something called "ham radios"? They have a much greater range than cell phones (their power output is measured in WATTS instead of in milliwatts), the people that use ham radios are trained in emergency procedures and have regular drills as what to do in any emergency situation, etc. It is a radio service that the Scout has to earn the privilege (read that as getting a ham radio license) and having one can help in getting the Radio Merit Badge. Ham radio operators (Amateur Radio Operators) are vaguely similar to CB radio operators, but they are a lot more civil on the radio. If your troop is camping more than a few miles from home, just who is the Scout going to call anyway? When he is asking for help on the ham radio, the people that he would be talking to will be local and in a better situation to render aid than mommy or daddy hundreds of miles away.

 

Just my $0.02

 

OGO

[Basementdweller]

Tom, just pull the boy out of the troop and find one that allows electronics. No reason to bust the chops of an established program and SM.

 

You need to get over calling a cell phone a tool. It is not a tool it is a telephone. You communicate with other people.

 

 

IT IS YOUR OPINION the policy is not working. BTW what is your position in the troop, Oh that's right you don't hold a position. I would butt the heck out.

 

 

 

 

[Beavah]

Yah, hmmm...

 

Da one thing yeh didn't mention in all that whole long list and summary was the most important point, eh?

 

It's not your call. It's da referee's call.

 

Arguing with da referee is not the example we as parents should be setting for our kids.

 

Now yeh want to start arguin' with all da folks you were askin' for advice too!

 

I'll pass.

 

If yeh feel that strongly about da issue, talk to the District Executive in your area of the council. He'll have a list of prospective organizations for chartering new troops. Step up and volunteer to be a Scoutmaster for such a new troop. Then yeh can try out your way of doin' things and see how it goes. Maybe you'll do some lads some good, and learn somethin' yourself along da way.

 

Beavah(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[HICO_Eagle]

Sure looks like you hit a nerve with your question but I can understand why. Our troop doesn't absolutely forbid cell phones like yours does but I understand why your SM has his policy and support it. You've basically got two and a half choices when any parental policy contradicts the troop policy:

 

1. Stick with the troop and live with its policies.

2. Find another troop whose policies you can live with.

2.5 Bring the topic up in committee but be prepared to resort to one of the two choices above.

 

I have a serious problem with a scout leader setting rules that contradict my rules as a parent.

 

and I have a serious problem with a parent that thinks his or her rules are so special they should overrule reasonable standard troop rules -- especially a father who is apparently an Eagle Scout and should know better. You should have known you have free will and therefore it would devolve to choices 1 or 2 instead of coming to a bulletin board to seek vindication.

[mmhardy]

Tombitt,

 

Here, here! I think you have the proper attitude on the issue. Continue to work within your troop to inspire change. Your son will be proud of the leadership role that youre taking.

 

The Birkenstock cell phone prohibitionists have their own agenda. Don't give it a thought.

 

Out