Retiring Confederate Colors

[cardinal50]

I am a commissioner for a troop that has been asked to conduct a a flag ceremony at our local Civil War battlefield. We are retiring the flags and installing new ones. The old flags will be given to local dignitaries. The troop has no trouble with the appropriate ceremony for the Stars and Stripes. the issue is how to handle the Stars and Bars that fly over the Confederate cemetery. (By the way, we're in the "southern" portion of the Commonwealth of Kentucky.) Obviously, we can't do a pledge of allegiance or the customary salute. How do we do a respectful ceremony and honor the fallen soldiers who fought and died for that flag without giving it the same honor we would render to the American Flag? Or do we?

 

Perplexed.

Dave

[packsaddle]

It is nothing but a piece of cloth. Dispose of it in a manner that does not harm the environment or recycle it. If you must burn it, just wad it up and throw it in.

[ordealarrowman]

I'd see how the did it during the confederacy (research!) or do the general same thing but with abovious exceptions (tear and burn it, save the rings, but no pledge of alligence)

[GernBlansten]

How would you treat a Nazi flag after a WW2 reenactment. Or a Japanese Rising Sun flag?

They were vanquished opponents. Treat it as you would any other article of conquest. Keep it as a souvenir.

[rkfrance]

Is there a plan yet? Are the flags flown separately? Are the Scouts bringing them down and raising the new ones? If you or the troop gets to make that decision, do them together, same manner as you would honor the American flag.

 

It is appropriate to salute "TAPS".

 

Remember, these soldiers were Americans too. Keep it solemn.

 

If done separately, honors (salute) should be restricted to recognized governments. No salute in honor of any nation not formally recognized by the US govt.

 

 

[SSScout]

It is history, nothing more. Ask how the Park Rangers treat it when they lower it? Then too, ask them how they treat the USA flag when they lower that. Perhaps they fly the US flag of the period, 32 stars? Any difference? I hope so.

I would lower it, fold it up like my table cloth and if it is being "retired", put it in the fire first. The US flag last, and with due ceremony.

 

Edited: My wife just pointed out that these were, indeed, Americans, too. Perhaps badly misguided, but still. She also mentioned that if any music is to be played, Taps at the end, but Dixie before. "If it was good enough for President Lincoln, why not now?"

(This message has been edited by SSScout)

[Lisabob]

Park ranger is a good idea. Also check with : your state historical society; the individual(s) who focus on that period of history in the history department of a local college or university; or maybe a well-regarded group of union or confederate re-enactors (though I'd be a little careful there, as there are historically authentic civil war re-enactors who take this stuff seriously, and then there are guys who like to play dress-up but aren't very focused on getting the details right).

 

Considering the potential for there to be a lot of attention and criticism of such an issue, doing a little leg work to get it right is probably going to pay off big in terms of headaches avoided later. And I hope that nobody in the unit is doing this to push a revisionist history agenda! That would be an inappropriate thing for boy scouts to be doing, IMO.

[SctDad]

Gern and packsaddle

 

So if I come across a 13 star flag can I just toss it in the trash or wad it up and throw it in the fire. Your comment makes no sense. The Flag of the CSA (or stars and bars as they are mentioned here) are part of the US history.

 

They were once the flag of the confederacy. There is nothing racist or derogatory about them. GET OVER IT. THey should be treated with the same respect as any US flag, current or past.

 

cardinal50

 

chance are if you are doing this for a ceremony about the Civil War, the see if you have a local 'Sons of the Confederacy.' They will probably know the customs of the time or how it should be done.(This message has been edited by SctDad)

[sheldonsmom]

Contact the re-enactors. They will know what to do.

[IM_Kathy]

I don't know of any ceremony's but here's the flag code for the confederate flag.

 

http://www.hqudc.org/info/flag_code.pdf

[GernBlansten]

The moment the south seceded from America, they ceased to be Americans and their flag became a symbol of the rebellion. We should honor it as we would any enemy nation's flag.

[raisinemright]

As a point of reference, a few years ago, divers found the Hunley, a Confederate submarine. The bodies of the crew were still intact. A few years later, as the sub was being researched and restored, they held a funeral for the crew. They were given a confederate funeral with full military honors.

 

Also, the stars and bars was not the flag of the confederacy, it was their battle flag, not the flag of slavery and oppression.

 

I'm a Yankee but if it were me, I would hold a brief explanation of the war of the rebellion (sorry, had to say it) and that Americans dies under these colors and wehile not our national colors, it is a flag of our history and should be given some respect as it is retired. Then burn it.

 

If US flags are being burned also, it might be wise to be certain that the American flags are completely burned up before the Confederate Battle flag is put to the fire.

[Eagledad]

>>The moment the south seceded from America, they ceased to be Americans and their flag became a symbol of the rebellion. We should honor it as we would any enemy nation's flag.

[Stosh]

Lots of good ideas, some not so good, some biased, etc. The Civil War is still fresh in the minds of many US citizens.

 

Here's what I would do.

 

The Battle Flag of Northern Virginia (aka, Confederate Flag) is NOT and NEVER WAS an official flag of the Confederacy. It is NOT the Stars and Bars. The Stars and Bars is what the current Georgia State Flag looks like today, blue union, 3 bars 2 red, one white. 13 Stars on the union. That is the First National Flag of the Confederacy. It was often confused with the Stars and Strips on the battle field and was replaced with the Stainless Flag of the Confederacy, the Second National Flag of the Confederacy. It was all white except for the modified Union Jack with 13 Stars in the union area. (Square version of the Battle Flag of Northern Virginia). Because of the amount of white in the flag, it looked like a flag of truce, and so a red vertical strip was added along the fly edge of the Stainless Flag and that became the Third National Flag of the Confederacy. It appeared late in the war and never made it to the field of combat.

 

So once the true history is known, one realizes that the Battle Flag of Northern Virginia is nothing more than a battle field marker, similar to the regimental flags used by Federal forces during the war. In battle the regiments of Northern Virginia carried two flags, the National Flag and the Battle Flag. The Battle Flag deserves the same respect as any other regimental flag and is disposed of in like manner, but not with full honors.

 

Because of this, I would invite an official representative from the Sons of Confederate Veterans to attend the ceremony and instead of disposing of the flag, present it to him to deal with as he sees fit. Sons of Confederate Veterans is an official organization like the American Legion, or VFW, representing the ancestors of Confederate Veterans. It is not a reenacting organization, but an organization dedicated to the memory of their Confederate ancestors. Then deal with the US flag according the the traditional methods mentioned.

 

As far as the representation of slavery and the problems of Civil War symbols, one will find that the US flag flew over slavery far longer than any of the Confederate flags and is used more often at racial demonstrations than the Battle Flag of Northern Virginia. The only reason the Battle Flag of Northern Virginia gets so much press over any of the other Confederate battle flags is because General R. E. Lee commanded the Northern Virginia forces during the war. Only a very small percentage of Confederate forces viewed that flag as their battle flag.

 

The Confederacy is NOT a foreign entity, nor was it ever a foreign entity, and it did not become one upon secession. Lincoln went to war to preserve the Union, thus it was a CIVIL war not a foreign war. Lincoln was not interested in preserving anything other than the Union and if that meant keeping slavery he was for it. It took two years of warfare before he declared those slaves in hostile territory to be "free" as were any other asset owned by secessionists. It was an economic issue not a racial or slavery issue. If the slaves were not working the fields, the Confederacy would not be able to sustain it's armies in the field. Slaves in border states were still not free. Slavery was not abolished until the signing and acceptance of the 14th Amendment of the Constitution well after the death of Lincoln. At that point all slaves were free.

 

So, once one gets past all the emotional baggage of the situation, a dignified presentation to the Sons of Confederate Veterans will suffice in an appropriate manner for disposing of a worn Confederate flag of any rank, whether it be a Confederate National flag or a battlefield regimental flag.

 

Stosh

Capt. Co. B, 2nd Wisconsin Volunteers, Reenactors

Advisor Crew 2, BSA

2nd WI Vol Infantry, USA

26th NC Regiment of Infantry, CSA(This message has been edited by jblake47)

[fleetfootedfox]

I would say that Scouts should not participate in such a ceremony while in BSA uniform.

 

A letter from the Chief Scout Executive Aug. 6, 1991 said boy scouts "... would no longer use the Confederate flag during official activities." See the following news stories for reference.

http://tinyurl.com/cjbopk

http://tinyurl.com/ctt522

 

Imagine the image problem that could occur if the newspapers carried a photo of boy scouts folding a confederate flag.

 

During the recent Presidential political campaign a local boy scout troop was invited to attend a political rally. The policy was clear. They could attend, but not in uniform, lest they be lending the symbols of the BSA to a particular party. So, I would say if your boys want to retire a confederate flag, the same principle would apply. They should be able to do it, but not in BSA uniform.