Totin Chip

[Eagledad]

You take the knife away from the scout?

 

Would you take the knife away from one of your ASMs? It just me, but I believe boys are't going to start acting like adults until we treat them like adults.

 

Barry

[Eagle92]

Since you added this sentence to your identical post in your other thread, I took the liberty of posting it on this thread and my response.

 

"Our troop has many young adults with no children leading as SM and ASM and dealing appropriately with behavior issues - what is the solution?

 

Cathy,

Not to sound hardnosed, but there is no problem with non-parents or parents with no children in the unit still remaining active. I've been an adult leader for 17 years now, and my oldest will not be a TC until June 1. One of the best trainers I've ever had was a lady whose son graduated out of Cubs adn Scouting and was in Pharmacy school when I met her, yet she was still a Cubmaster and CS Trainer. And then my old SM had no childen at all, his nephews needed a SM and he volunteered. Stayed in the position for 25 years.

 

The best way to resolve this "challenge" is to volunteer in either a leadership role, or as a committee member who is responsible for recruiting leaders. Make sure to undergo training as some folks have a real problem transitioning from CSs to BSs. There are differences in the programs, and I am having the reverse problem; transitioning from BSs to CSs

 

While the SPL and/or PLs should be the ones to handle it, in an emergency for safety reasons, the Adult should take charge as we are the ones resposnible for safety.

 

Personally I think the dropped knife is not a problem, unless the blade was open. Then that's a safety issue. As to the other incident, can't really comment on, there may be more to the story.

 

Maybe havign a cup of coffee and talking to the ASM, or better yet have your son talk to him after a few days.

 

One other thing to remember, he still has Totin Chit privelges as long as A) he has A corner left, or B the card is not cut in half.

 

So I wouldn't be too worried about it.(This message has been edited by eagle92)

[Horizon]

We have a Troop Instructor who only focuses on totin chit. His job is to ensure that everyone reviews knife safety. His job is also to check everyone's book for the sign-off. We don't worry about carrying actual cards.

 

If a Scout is unsafe with their knife, it ends up in my essentials bag and that Scout reports to the Instructor for a refresher. The Instructor has to make time immediately for the Scout to review knife safety.

 

To become the instructor is tough - it usually means that you have lost your knife to the SM more than once in a short period of time.

 

Would I take a knife away from an adult? Sure I would. I would also call out an adult for any violation of the Law or Oath as well.

[CalicoPenn]

I think I've relayed that in my Troop, the corners of our Totin Chips weren't removed. If we transgressed the safety rules, the correction was much more diabolical. We had to sharpen every axe, hand-axe, and bow saw the Troop owned - all in one sitting - and even if they were sharpened just minutes before.

 

In this case, the ASM should be slapped upside the head with a Boy Scout Handbook - but that would only work if it might knock some sense into this guy.

 

 

 

[CalicoPenn]

Admittedly part of my answer was a bit flippant - I wouldn't really smack a Scouter upside the head with a handbook - though sometimes I can be sorely tempted when faced with some of the pettiness I've seen.

 

But in thinking of the bigger picture - what is with this tradition? I've always looked upon Totin Chip as an award - an acknowledgment that one has gotten training in an area and has demonstrated knowledge - not unlike a merit badge really - just without the patch. I've never thought of it as a license - I don't think the BSA literature supports the notion of it being a license either - please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

It's gotten me thinking - if it's ok to tear off the corner of a Totin Chip card, why isn't it ok to tear off the corner of the First Aid Merit Badge if a Scout uses the wrong kind of bandage, or whatever and if he loses all 4 corners, has to earn it again? Why isn't it ok to tear off the corner of a First Class rank card if the Scout slips on a Scout Spirit issue and has to re-earn it if he loses all 4 corners?

 

This tradition just makes no sense to me at all - tearing the corners off a Totin Chip card doesn't do anything to enhance safety, or review procedures, or develop respect for the tools. I know that having to sharpen all 7 of the Troop's axes and the three bow saws once did more to instill in me a respect for the tools than someone tearing off the corner of a card would ever have done.

 

Or maybe I just don't understand.

[Eagle92]

It may have one time served as a license in literature b/c that's how my troop, and 99.9% of the troops I've known or been affiliated with has treated the TC. And I've been in 5 different councils. In the way I way taught, the cut corner was a reminder for you to use your tools safely. And it gave four chances, unless you really screwed up.

[HICO_Eagle]

Eagle92, my experience is the same. Admittedly I have only served in 4 councils but I have never seen -- or heard of until now -- a troop that DIDN'T treat the TnC as a "license to carry" with the fourth offense leading to revocation and relicensing. It's a useful training technique as it reinforces the safety training without pulling the license immediately (unless the offense was extremely serious).

 

For those against using it this way, think of it as a driver's license in a state using the point system for moving violations. Would you automatically revoke the DL on first offense? Would you never revoke it no matter how many times the driver has been unsafe?

[Knot Head]

 

There are good ideas in this thread. Having a scout sharpen the troops tools if he breaks the rules is a great idea. I also like the annual refresher test just like we do for the swimming test. Even guys with the swimming MB take the swim test each year, so why not blade safety too? That is a great idea and I plan to ask if we can do this each year.

 

We already have an annual "first aid month" where we play games and have scenarios at the meeting during this month to teach/review first aid. We also do a "water safety fortnight" each May, so why not add a review of knife safety to the list.

 

[gcnphkr]

"For those against using it this way, think of it as a driver's license in a state using the point system for moving violations. Would you automatically revoke the DL on first offense? Would you never revoke it no matter how many times the driver has been unsafe?"

 

That is part of my point. Tearing the corner off for an infraction treats them all the same. We do not suspend a DL because of parking tickets (as long as they are paid) but a DUI will get it pulled the first time in some states. Two buddies sitting next to each other whittling is not the same as playing a game of split the difference. One requires only a reminder to keep the blood circle clear, the other might be reason to revoke the privilege. Somethings require retraining, others a suspension, while others just a reminder.

[JoeBob]

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I think you'll appreciate the effectiveness of 'cutting corners' more if you look at it from a kid's perspective.

The first corner taken is a visual stain on a prized award. A verbal reprimand is easily put out of a kid's mind. Many times kids are threatened with discipline that isn't delivered. But he can always picture that cornerless card in his pocket. Each additional corner lost whittles down his chances of keeping that priviledge. If you take off bigger pieces of the card with each successive corner removed, that will really drive home the point that this priviledge is in danger. I'd have to say that any Cub with only one corner left on his tiny scrap of a Totin Chip should be very motivated to handle a knife safely.

 

That said, I don't think that re-training and restoring a second card is safe. Any scout that has violated basic safety procedures FOUR times is a danger to himself and to others, and has demonstrated that he does not yet have the maturity to handle a dangerous tool.

 

Imagine this scenario: After taking the course again and regaining his whitlin' chip, Chuck accidentally slashed Johnny's hand. Johnny's parents sue because of irreparable nerve damage. Imagine the lawyer's glee when he learns of a documented chain of evidence proving that we knew that Chuck could not be responsible with a knife... Just Damn.

 

BTW: In response to an above posted incident, a closed knife dropped out of a pocket is no more dangerous than a rock and shouldn't be a safety violation.

[SSScout]

Let's clear up the confusion that happens every time this subject comes up. And yes, I realize all the following is paraphrased alot...

 

Totin' Chip::: Boy Scout award. Indicates the Boy Scout has learned and demonstrated that he can use and properly care for knife, axe, and saw safely and responsibly. The boy has "permission" to carry and use those tools at Scout activities. This previlege can be revoked if ...and here is where it gets muddy. Leader descretion and Unit tradition comes in.

 

Whittlin' Chit:: Cub Scout award. Indicates that the Bear or Webelos Cub Scout (NOT Tiger or Wolf) has learned and demonstrated that he can use ONLY a folding pocket knife safely and responsibly. I'd like to think that the W/C class also included safe and proper handling all other knives as well (cooking, etc.). The boy has "permission" WITH HIS PARENTS KNOWLEDGE AND PERMISSION, to carry and use a pocket knife at Cub Scout activities ONLY. AND AGAIN, this privelege can be revoked if...Same here, leader discretion and Unit tradition.

 

Chips and Chits. Teach'em and demonstrate how all the time. Boy, will they catch you if you don't say "thank you"! Or don't sweep a safety circle!. Insist on the best behavior and you are more likely to get it.

 

Safety first.

[Twocubdad]

Oh yeah, like I need more paperwork to do.

 

We don't even issue the cards. The boys complete the requirement and that's it. We don't give them cards for other requirement?