Religious Services at Events

[Twocubdad]

From your post, that was my suspicion.

 

(Now back in the can....)

[cardinal50]

At our district events in my old council, we held a non-denominational Christian service and arranged for a RC priest to celebrate Mass for our Catholic brothers or we arranged transportation for them to the nearest RC Church to attend to their obligation. We did this on Friday evenings before campfire. This was all, of course, voluntary. I'm fairly sure we didn't have any other faiths represented in our district at that time. If we had others, I'm confident we would have had a discussion with them in order to accommodate their desires. Often, some of the Catholic boys chose to attend the "Protestant" service and at least once, two of my Methodist scouts asked to attend Mass, to experience what their friends' worship was like. To my knowledge, no-one complained.

 

 

 

Dave

 

 

[John-in-KC]

GoldFox,

 

Use all your resources. That's one of the key tenets of Wood Badge. In this case, don't be the one to take the bullet. Your District Commissioner can help. Within your Council, there is certainly one priest who is a Scouter. There may also be a guy like a good friend I have ... Vigil Honor, Silver Beaver, Knight of Columbus ... and a great believer that we grownups are here to serve the boys first. Ask someone like these guys to be the heavy for you, and have the friendly cup of coffee (or maybe visit in the confessional) with your "friend."

 

If he's being a pain, the best thing to do is find a way to bypass him. Then you can get back to the important stuff of the weekend, including the best way to deal with the worship hour

 

Neil ... will PM you. That conversation is better done off-list.

 

 

[Beavah]

It has gotten so bad that after the last email - where this person started talking about taking youth - not just their own but others - off site to attend church services.

 

Yah, maybe it's just me, eh? But I don't see what's wrong with a couple of Catholic adults taking a mess of Catholic kids off-site to go to church (with parental permission, of course). This is not an argument you can ever "win", all yeh can do is lose.

 

I'd just invite a local catholic priest to come out and offer mass, eh? In areas like ours where Catholics make up a fair percent of the scoutin' population, that just seems sensible. For Catholics, as I understand it, a generic service "doesn't count" for meetin' their Sunday obligation of reverence. Same with LDS. Some protestants are OK with generic services, but not all. So we try to help 'em all out when we can, or we at least make it easier for them to attend local services without missin' too much.

 

Me, I've got to agree with KC and others, eh? Generic services are next to worthless, and cause more trouble then they're worth in a diverse community.

 

Beavah

 

[NeilLup]

Hello Beavah,

 

Sounds reasonable. However, if your area is anything like mine, churches are being closed because of too few priests. In many cases, a priest on Sunday has to cover several churches. Not that it's inconceivable to get a priest to come to Sunday services on a campout but it's very, very difficult because of their extremely busy schedules.

 

There are ways to address the situation for Catholics. However, it the person absolutely insists on attending Mass, then addressing it may be impossible other than by going to a church for their regularly scheduled Mass.

[SSScout]

From the Founder's words (see the much quoted but often neglected guidance in "Aids to Scoumastership" noted by Nachamawat above), to BSA's insistance to make relgious faith a basis rather than a support to the Scouting program, we are still left with the need to "agree to disagree".

As it happens, the BSA has been somewhat unique in it's acknowledgement of religion. Many other national Scout associations around the world make no mention of faith or religion in their particular Law. And the published definition of the BSA Law has evolved over the years:

" A Scout is Reverent. He is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties and respects the convictions of others in matters of custom and religion." (1911 to 1972)

" A Scout is Reverent. He is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties.

He respects the beliefs of others. (1972 thru the present)

 

By including spiritual faith in the official program, BSA has both improved and made more difficult our task as Scout leaders.

Should we acknowledge and encourage the faiths propounded by our Scouts and their families? Absolutely. Should we criticize their choices? Absolutely not. Should we seek to accomodate their needs? As much as possible.

I keep coming back to Father Mulcahy in MASH (the TV series, not the movie), who went out of his way to ease the way of not only his Catholic soldiers and Korean natives, but also the Jewish and Buddhist ones as well.

My Quaker flavored version of Christianity is mine. It is, in my experience, the easiest way for God to find me. I am always ready to share my experience with others, but I do not begrudge any others their method. I find it to be well suited to me and my family.

Readers of this forum will note my stories about conversations with many other faiths. I welcome this.

 

When I have been asked to lead the "Scout's Own" discussion for IOLS, I note that in respect to a religious observance at a camp out or on the trail, the Scout leader and his/her unit has four choices. 1) Make no acknowledgement. Don't offend or approve by not attempting a religious observance of any kind. Leave the "duty to God" totally to the Scout's own conscience. 2) If your unit is known to be mono-faith, make a small religious service of appropriate ceremony. Use your Chaplain's Aide and let them take the lead in the service planning and execution. Adult faith leaders may be included as appropriate to the faith. Pray, sing, etc. as led. 3) Experiment, let other faiths have a turn in leading an acknowledgment of God's leadership. But make sure parents and Scouts realize that they may be exposed to another tradition other than their own. (I remember my Methodist Church Troop attending a Jewish Synagogue). You can stop at the local church or synagogue on your way out or going home. Nothing like a bunch of trail weary Scouts in the back pews of the local church to start conversation.

4) Any attempt at being inclusive and all incompassing may not be successful, for all the reasons noted in this thread and others. You can't please everyone and you can certainly offend many without trying hard.

I then suggest any such acknowledgement should be about 10 or 15 minutes long, be heavy on thankfulness and realizing God's creation. I usually then gave them my attempt at an inclusive "Scout's Own". It includes prayers from Navahoe, Christian, Koranic, Jewish, Irish, and Iroquois traditions. It includes some leader reading/ group response, and single reading/prayer. I say that should anyone find they cannot say what is suggested, they may pass. I remind them that, as I love God and Christ, I would not subject them to my song leading, but that is a personal choice.

I have had folks in my IOLS groups of Muslim, Jewish, Lutheran, LDS, Catholic, and various Protestant persuasions. I have not had any give me any negative feed back. Perhaps they were only being polite?

 

Our choices in religion are laid on us first by our families, then by our life situations. Our families require us to attend church (or not), listen to our priest or Immam (or avoid such). We learn to accept or reject that and move on. One chance passes us by as another opens up for us. As Spock said, "there are always choices".

 

What follows is the recorded testimony of James Naylor, on his deathbed, just before his death at age 44 in 1650. It speaks to me and I recommend it to you.

 

"There is a spirit which I feel, that delights to do no evil, nor to avenge any wrong, but delights to endure all things in hope to enjoy its own in the end. It's hope is to outlive all wrath and contention, and to weary out all exaltation and cruelty, or whatever is of a nature contrary to itself. It sees to the end of all temptations. As it bears no evil in itself, so it conceives none in thought to any other: if it be betrayed, it bears it; for its ground and spring are the mercies and forgiveness of God. Its crown is meekness, its life is everlasting love unfeigned, and takes its kingdom with entreaty, and not with contention, and keeps it by lowliness of mind. In God alone it can rejoice, though none else regard it, or can own its life. It is conceived in sorrow, and brought forth without any to pity it; nor doth it murmur at grief, and oppression. It never rejoiceth but through sufferings; for with the world's joy it is murdered. I found it alone, being forsaken. I have fellowship therein with them who lived in dens, and desolate places of the earth, who through death obtained this resurrection, and eternal holy life."

 

Happy Easter time to you all.

(This message has been edited by SSScout)

[BDPT00]

John and Ken:

He is risen. Alleluia!

To those who'd would prefer a watered-down-whatever (one size fits all), and refuse to see their point:

Have a nice day.

BDPT00

[GoldFox]

The Catholics, in fact all christian religions will have plenty of time to get home on Sunday and attend their own service as we end very early for this exact reason.

 

The purpose of our interfaith was to remind the boys of their duty to God and that a scout is Reverent - nothing else.

 

There is a scouter who is also a priest. In fact he has created and the council has published an small book on on interfaith meditations on the scout law. It covers many religions, christian, jewish, muslim, etc. and is provided at our council summer camp to all troop members every year.

 

I think going forward I am going to reccommend that we have a religious hour, where each unit takes care of their own scouts during any district event. Hopefully this will eliminate future issues.

[BDPT00]

Let the Catholics have their own service. Not a bad idea, especially it they think that the service offered by the district doesn't "count." That is certainly not the intention of the district anyway. They should realize though, that if what they're offering is not a mass, it also doesn't "count." To be a mass, they would need a priest who is authorized by the local diocese to conduct services in that area.

[Trevorum]

What about pagan scouts? Do they get their own service, too?

[GernBlansten]

Sure Trev, but then the entire campout is your sanctuary. is that fair?

[Trevorum]

[NeilLup]

As I believe that I posted elsewhere on these board, at a Wood Badge course in 2006, 3 of the participants listed their religion as "pagan." Our Chaplain's Aide is Wiccan (also active duty in the Army) and organized a great Scout's Own service.

 

If one truly believes in the 12th point of the Law, pagans are no less worthy of respect than any other religion which is not one's own religion.

[ScoutNut]

OK - Just to note, it's Easter Sunday & I am a Catholic, sitting here and reading this nonsense.

 

"There is a scouter who is also a priest."

 

THIS is who is causing all of this trouble?? Someone who has no child in the program??

 

Tell EVERYONE there is one hour (or whatever the time slot is) for religious contemplation) they can either do their own thing, or attend the camp interfaith service. PERIOD.

 

If they do not like that they can stay home.

 

As a Catholic, I have sat thru a number of inter-faith services at Summer Camp (I am on staff for a number of weekends each year). While none have been amazingly inspirational, they have covered the basics, and some have even been pretty good. They did also, as far as I know, not offend anyone.

 

Personally, as a Catholic, and a religious person of any kind, I am rather offended by this persons attitude.

 

Either they work WITH the camp - or they stay home. Enough is enough.

 

And then there is Beveah -

 

"Yah, maybe it's just me, eh? But I don't see what's wrong with a couple of Catholic adults taking a mess of Catholic kids off-site to go to church (with parental permission, of course)."

 

Perhaps you would understand if you read this post from Gold Fox -

 

"When we were in the same unit and took a bunch of scouts overseas, they MADE all the scouts attend a Catholic service with them on Sunday. I tried to take those non-Catholic's to another church or skip it and they had a hissy fit. "

 

This person seems to be on a religious power trip.

 

Just say NO!

 

Not a lot they can do except not attend, and somehow I think the event will be better off.

 

 

 

 

 

[Nachamawat]

I have given responding further to this thread a lot of thought. I have decided that I need to wade further into the discussion, so after donning my waders, here I go:

 

I must wholeheartedly agree with GoldFox and the sentiment that those complaining the loudest simply want the rest to know how religious they are.

 

It seems to me that school prayer falls into the same realm of our discussion here (a whole new can of worms!) Please let me explain. There are 168 hours in a week. Children are in school for 30 to 32 hours a week and they presumably sleep 42 hours a week. That leaves around 96 hours a week that these students could be otherwise involved in religious education or devotion. Perhaps those students spend five minutes a day waiting on the corner for their bus to arrive, is this not enough time to utter devotional prayer to their Maker? Additionally, on a non-camping week these students, who might be involved in Scouting, spend an hour or more in church in devotion.

 

Why can we not simply, throughout the time we are communing with nature allow these boys the opportunity to connect, in their own way, with the One they perceive as their God? Why must adults formalize the process into pews and churches? If God created the great outdoors, why is not simply appropriate that we, mere mortals, spend time in His natural beauty in awe and wonder?

 

The Pack that I used to be associated with attended Scout Sunday en masse. All the adult leaders were there except one. This leader made his absence conspicuous by saying that the CO does not practice his type of religion. They use music and musical instruments in their services. He also felt that the church (United Methodist) did not preach from the bible. It seemed very odd to me, a simple man, that he was willing to volunteer his time to Cub Pack that was chartered by this church, therefore, allowing his name to be associated with them to all that are aware of the Pack, yet, he could not condone their religious service for one Sunday. I am a catholic by birth and upbringing, yet my local parish does not offer a Scouting program. Should I punish my son by not allowing him to participate in Scouting because another denomination is chartering his troop? I think the very idea is hogwash.

 

I am not involved in Scouting, and neither is my son, because we think it will lead either of us to salvation. I am involved because I was a Scout in my youth and I feel the organization taught me to be a better person and American. I want my son to belong in this wonderful program as long as he sees fit. He will continue his religious education, my responsibility to him, in the Catholic Church and upon his majority if he chooses to change, so be it.