Religious Services at Events

[Twocubdad]

This is is not about faith. It is about this guy using faith to throw his weight around. He's not asking that the district accommodate his special needs. He's he's asking for special treatment.

 

Let's stick with GoldFox's query: the Scouter "is insisting that we provide a location and time on our schedule for them to hold their own religious service for anyone at the event who wishes to come." That part of his "request" is for this special service to be open to anyone at the event makes me suspicious of his motives. Is to trying to provide for the special needs of his Scouts is he looking of an opportunity to proselytize for his particular cause? He's not asking for accommodation, he's asking for the rest of the event to come to a halt so his service can be front and center.

 

These are not Jewish Scouts asking to be excused from the Friday night camp fire so the can hold Shabbat. These aren't Muslim Scouts asking for a private location from Friday morning prayers. Perhaps GoldFox will clear this up by noting the particular faith involved.

 

And John, with all due respect to you PTC education, I disagree that separate services are the preferred model. Scouting is a nonsectarian organization. From a standpoint of diversity and tolerance I think it is important that Scouts come together to acknowledge the commonality of faith in Scouting. A Scout's Own service is a perfect example of what is intended by A Scout is Reverent -- not just the part about being faithful in his religious duties, but also the second part about respecting the belief's of others.

 

There is no question that Scouting should - and does -- accommodate the various form of worship of its members. No one should ever be blocked from worshipping as they see fit. But in my opinion, that 20 minutes at the end of a campout where we come together, sing God Bless America and Morning Has Broken, and acknowledge that we are all part of God's plan is a very important part of Scouting.

[John-in-KC]

You made me do it:

 

From the DRP:

 

Its policy is that the home and organization or group with which a member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life.

 

Since the DRP is part of the Rules and Regulations of BSA, our mission is to provide support to the families that enroll in us, and the Chartered Partners who contract with us for our program.

 

Scouting itself is nonsectarian. Its legitimate place is to enable faith, not to be a substitute for faith. When we do generic namby pamby mix and match Scouts' Owns that try to combine faiths, we're crossing the bright line to being a substitute.

[Narraticong]

Please refer to the third post in this thread. The lid is now off the can off worms entirely.

 

Twocubdad, please let me know just which "God" you refer to in your post? And just who's version of his plan are you referring to? My Christian faith is clear that there is only one God and a quick reference to the 10 Commandments reminds me that I shall worrship no other God. There is no "commonality of faith", except among those with the same closely held beliefs.

 

I think this explains where John and I are coming from. As he and I come from the same denomination, we share the same beliefs in who God is. Thus, we can have a very meaningful shared expereince. That would certainly seem to be preferable to a more generic experience.

 

At my Scoutmaster's training we learned how to run a "proper" Scouts Own service. It had Bible verses- all from the Old Testament. I guess someone thought this might appease folks from several backgrounds. Well, to me, no Gospel means I am denying Jesus. I find that offensive and would just as soon not participate.

 

The fact is, my personal faith, and the proper practice it requires, is more important to me than respecting or tolerating the faith of someone else. Therefore, rather than offend you, or be offended by you, I will quietly choose not to participate in a watered down generic service whenever possible. I will much prefer to worship with those folks who have a similar faith.

 

[Twocubdad]

I'll put my worm back in the can. It seems to me we have such a divergent understanding of both faith and it's role in Scouting that continuing here is likely counterproductive.

 

Respectfully,

 

Twocubdad

[BadenP]

Narraticong

 

Just a technical point the 10 Commandments were firstly and exclusively given directly to the Jews from God via Moses, not the Christians, so you are in essence blending Judaism with your Christianity. The Old Testament, now more correctly referred to as the Hebrew Scriptures were written to guide God's chosen people through times of turmoil and were written more as historical accounts and instruction manuals for Jewish worship, like Leviticus written for the priestly caste, dietary rules written for the Jewish masses, etc..

 

All modern Christian denominations are a blending of faiths throughout history like it or not, it is a branch of Jesses Tree, not the trunk itself, something we all need to remember.

[John-in-KC]

Faith's role in Scouting is central and pivotal: The first commitment of a Boy Scout in the Oath is "to God." The last proactive commitment in the Law is Reverent. Those are the bookends inside which you find everything else.

 

When we speak of the District or the Council, their most vital purpose is to provide support under Charter Agreements to Packs, Troops, Teams and Crews. Who does the predominance of chartering Nationwide? Churches, synagogues, temples and mosques.

 

It matters not if the chartered partner is Buddhist, Hindu, Ba'hai, Lutheran, Methodist, Catholic, LDS, or a non-religious actor. Our duty, when we speak of Scouting beyond the unit, is to furnish support to the unit and the chartered partner.

 

We obligate youth and their families joining the program to the DRP. We like to talk a lot about Chartered Partners holding up their end of the bargain. Well, this is a case where Scouting gets to hold up its end of the bargain.

 

And if that means revisiting how we structure worship opportunities at District and Council events, so be it.

[NeilLup]

To get a bit more information, check out the Unit of Supplemental Training on "Conducting an Interfaith Service" on the BSA National website. This has been reviewed and approved by the major religions which participate in National religious relationships.

 

http://scouting.org/BoyScouts/TrainingModules/Interfaith%20Service.aspx

 

This doesn't help particularly with the person or group which wants their own service. In that case, you accommodate as best you can but don't kill yourself. They likely don't get a separate time for their own service but Scouts aren't penalized for participating in their service and not in something else.

[Nachamawat]

Narraticong wrote:

Twocubdad, please let me know just which "God" you refer to in your post? And just who's version of his plan are you referring to? My Christian faith is clear that there is only one God and a quick reference to the 10 Commandments reminds me that I shall worrship no other God. There is no "commonality of faith", except among those with the same closely held beliefs.

 

I think this explains where John and I are coming from. As he and I come from the same denomination, we share the same beliefs in who God is. Thus, we can have a very meaningful shared expereince. That would certainly seem to be preferable to a more generic experience.

 

At my Scoutmaster's training we learned how to run a "proper" Scouts Own service. It had Bible verses- all from the Old Testament. I guess someone thought this might appease folks from several backgrounds. Well, to me, no Gospel means I am denying Jesus. I find that offensive and would just as soon not participate. The fact is, my personal faith, and the proper practice it requires, is more important to me than respecting or tolerating the faith of someone else. Therefore, rather than offend you, or be offended by you, I will quietly choose not to participate in a watered down generic service whenever possible.

 

Now let me throw in my two cents. This is precisely where the problem begins for me; with the concept of religious superiority and intolerance for the belief of others. It would seem to me that each religion believes it is superior to every other religious belief and the doctrine espoused is the only true way to achieve everlasting salvation. So if we are to include a religious service at the close of outdoor experience it would appear to me that it be of a generic form, so as to not precipitate a religious war!

 

I found a few quotes that have attributed to Lord Baden Powell that dovetail here pretty well:

 

I will much prefer to worship with those folks who have a similar faith. "Love of God, love of your neighbour and respect of oneself as God's servant are the basis for any form of religion" (Aids to Scoutmastership, 1919) http://post369.columbus.oh.us/bp.d/religion.html'>http://post369.columbus.oh.us/bp.d/religion.html

 

The method of expression of reverence to God varies with every sect and denomination. What sect or denomination a boy belongs to depends, as a rule, on his parents' wishes. It is they who decide. It is our business to respect their wishes and to second their efforts to inculcate reverence, whatever form of religion the boy professes. (Aids To Scoutmastership pg.36) http://post369.columbus.oh.us/bp.d/religion.html

 

B.-P's Outlook on Religion

Very closely allied with education comes the important matter of religion. Though we hold no brief for any one form of belief over another, we see a way to helping all by carrying the same principle into practice as is now being employed in other branches of education, namely, to put the boys in touch with their objective, which in this case is to do their duty to God through doing their duty to their neighbour. In helping others in doing daily good turns, and in rescuing those in danger, pluck, self-discipline, unselfishness, chivalry, become acquired, and quickly form part of their character. These attributes of character, coupled with the right study of Nature, must of necessity help to bring the young soul in closer touch spiritually with God.

Personally, I have my own views as to the relative value of the instruction of children in Scripture history within the walls of Sunday-school, and the value of Nature study and the practice of religion in the open air, but I will not impose my personal views upon others.

I prefer to be guided by collective opinions of experienced men, and here a remarkable promise stands before us. Scouting has been described by various men and women of thought and standing as "a new religion" - three times I have read it this week. It is not, of course, a "new religion," it is merely the application to religious training of the principle now approved for secular training - that of giving a definite objective and setting the child to learn and practice for himself - and that, I think everybody's experiences will tell him, is the only training which really sticks by a man for good and ultimately forms part of his character

January, 1912 (ibid)

 

The first link after the quotes does not work properly but the second link does.(This message has been edited by nachamawat)

[shortridge]

A quick comment (not trying to coax more worms out). Just as there are people who prefer only worshiping in their own faith tradition, there are folks such as myself who do appreciate and enjoy the "generic" services that are offered up by Scouts themselves. A "chapel service" at summer camp is not the same as Saturday at a synagogue or lone meditation, and I know that going in. It's a time for those who wish to do so to come together and renew and remind ourselves the universality of the outdoors and creation.

 

Story time. In my youth, I attended a regional merit badge camporee at the Naval Academy in Annapolis, a day-long on-campus event with classes taught by midshipmen, usually former Scouts themselves. At the end of the day, on Saturday evening, there were a variety of worship services offered in the various Academy chapels. I recall separate services for Protestants, Catholics and Jews - there may have been more. All were held at the same time so no participant missed anything. Anyway, if it's good enough at the Naval Academy, it might be good enough for GoldFox's situation.

[John-in-KC]

Ahh, Neil, you refer to the service we diced to a fare-thee-well in this thread: http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=193506&p=1

 

I posted a link to that thread in my initial post. The problem is, the BSA school solution approaches anathema, as I said a year ago. To quote the last portion of my post a year ago:

 

I know BSA means well, but it should stick to its premise that the family is the responsible agency for faith.

 

This is of eternal importance. As a Scouter, I cannot and will not prosletyze. As a Christian, God calls His people to proclaim the Word as written in Scripture. The tipping point is, within the Scouting community, to allow each to worship in his own way.

 

My thoughts on this matter.

 

Let's look at a fundamental difference: Do you propose to put two Scouts in the same worship service, where one comes from the practice of ... "There is no God but One, and His name is Allah." ... and the other comes from ... "I Am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father but by Me."

 

BSA's proper role in matters of faith is defined by the DRP: Its policy is that the home and organization or group with which a member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life. That's Article IX, Section 1, Clause 1 of the Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America. (as quoted in ACP&P #33088). Not program guidancy, not policy, but a rule and regulation ... governance stuff.

 

Being absolutely nonsectarian, to me, means enabling your Chartered Partners who are in the faith business, and not getting in the writing of matters faith business yourself.

 

Peace be with you, Blessed Easter, John

[NeilLup]

Hello John,

 

I hope you have a wonderful Easter.

 

One can disagree with the approach suggested by the BSA in the Unit of Supplemental Training. The purpose of that unit is not to suggest that it is appropriate for any one individual. Rather it is to suggest that if a unit/District/Council chooses to have an interfaith service, here is how to do it. If any person or group of people choose not to participate, that is a matter of their own personal religious belief.

 

The alternative is having religious observances which actively, rather than psssively, offend others.

 

Examples

 

1) Prayers which end with "This we pray in Jesus name, amen." This is troubling for Jews, Muslims and others. Nothing wrong with such a prayer by itself. But if a person plans to end with that, they should so mention to the event organizers so that they can be disinvited if that closing is considered unacceptable.

 

2) An adult grabbing the hat off a boy before prayers were said, saying "Take off your hat! Don't you show respect for God?" The boy was Jewish and Jews pray with their hats on.

 

3) Serving ham for dinner at camp on Friday night. Again, observant Jews cannot eat ham.

 

The choices would seem to be:

 

a) An interfaith service

b) A multitude of sectarian services

c) No services and each individual making their own arrangements.

 

The BSA has not chosen to go the route of C and this choice is much more pointed than when I was a Scout in the 50s and 60s. However, the BSA does have a difficult tightrope to walk when aggressively promoting religious observance while including in its members many different religious organizations many of which say "We're right and all others are wrong."

 

The Unit of Supplemental Training was approved by the National Religious Relationships Committee including the several different denominational Religious Relationships Committees. They found it acceptable. It is, of course, the prerogative of any individual to find any religious service other than their own sacreligious. But that would appear to be contrary to the fine print of the 12th point of the Scout Law. "A scout is reverent. He is reverent toward God. He is faithful to his religious duties and respects the convictions of others in matters of custom and religion."

[John-in-KC]

Agree with most of what you said. As I've stated before, I had some long talks, both in the classroom and on the Greensward of PTC with the NLAS President-Elect, our Pastoral Advisor, and the ELCA Pastoral representative to Scouting.

 

Ken (Narraticong) was there for much of those conversations. I do have to admit he and I come from a denomination where ecuminism in Divine Worship (read communion services) within Christendom is looked askance, and, well, we had a tremendous how-do-you-do after 9-11, where one of our District Presidents took it upon himself to be at the Yankee Stadium memorial, and worship on the same altar as Hebrews, Muslims, Buddhists...

 

There are ways to deal with this. Most protestant Christianity can be lumped into one mixmaster for a weekend devotional, if need be. The theologians may not like it, but Jesus is King of Kings and Lord of Lords cuts through to bone mighty fast. Catholicism takes care of itself. I wish more LDS units could get dispensation from stake presidents to worship in the field Sunday morning. To me, dealing with the matter by faith groupings, letting Council furnish demographic data, is one workable solution. Another solution is simply block an hour for worship, let units do it at unit level, and if a unit wants to host a denomination-specific service, go for it.

 

Part of the reason for my stridency on this issue is what I've endured in WB Scouts Own ... I almost walked away from the course over that, and at least one badly done interfaith at a Council function. Should I read the Bhagavad-Gita or Q'uran? Yes, there's some good wisdom in them. Should I say yes when it's held to me in worship as a sacred writing on par with the Bible? I think not. Yes, both have happened to me.

[GoldFox]

It is a Catholic Service and the unit is not chartered by a Catholic church. I have forwarded to problem to the DE who told me that we were correct in what we have offered them and in what we are doing.

 

We polled all the SMs before we finalized this decision and did not get one negative response. We made announcement at Roundtable about this and again no negative responses.

 

The person is upset because they EXPECT a Catholic service and claim that parents are expecting it and that we have to notify all parents that we are not doing this.

 

Now, I don't know about you but I never send my son to a scout event expecting that event to meet his religious obligations.

 

We went with the interfaith service because...

 

1. Often ministers/pastors for other services are not scheduled or do not show up and the rest of the camp as to create an interfaith on the fly.

 

2. We thought that if each unit supplied their chaplain's aide to work with 2 adult scouters, familiar with interfaith services, it would be a great way to bring the camp together.

 

3. We would be showing favoritism to one religion over another.

 

In addition, we scheduled the event to end on Sunday any with plenty of time for units to get home, unload and make their various religious services. We had several Catholics on the committee and not a one of them saw a problem with this.

 

It has gotten so bad that after the last email - where this person started talking about taking youth - not just their own but others - off site to attend church services.

 

I finally passed the whole mess off to my DE. This person will not accept the "interfaith" information on BSA's site. They say that is a guideline not a policy. I also told them that BSA does not have a policy requiring that I provide individual services at a district or council event. But they blew that off.

 

They accused us of not respecting an individual scout's religious belief by having an interfaith service.

[NeilLup]

"Should I say yes when it's held to me in worship as a sacred writing on par with the Bible? I think not."

 

The challenging question is how to react when other Scouters may regard them as writings as sacred to them as the Bible is to you. How do you act not to disrespect those Scouters?

 

The other possibility is to have any vestage of individual religion removed so that the interfaith service simply says "Sin is bad." That's rather dissatisfying also.

[GoldFox]

John,

 

I like your idea of block of time and letting individual units handle their own services. I think that is really appropriate, especially of the unit is all the same religion.

 

Unfortunately that would still not fly with this person.

 

When we were in the same unit a few years back, this person would repeatly leave with their son very early on Sunday morning to attend their church. But apparently this action is not acceptable for other units or their youth to do this time.

 

When we were in the same unit and took a bunch of scouts overseas, they MADE all the scouts attend a Catholic service with them on Sunday. I tried to take those non-Catholic's to another church or skip it and they had a hissy fit.

 

It is my own belief (and only mine) that they want the whole camp to know how religious they are.