push ups

[SctDad]

When you are comparing boys physical abilities, how about doing something that helps build something else that the BSA promotes. TEAMWORK. If the boys who is a wrestler can knock out 10 without breaking a sweat, then encourage him to motivate his buddy, and if his buddy is truly struggling, then allow the big guy to help out with one or two push-ups. But they both must be finished before they Both are done.

 

A lot of people here obviously have never been around an environment like the military. If I had a cub who was being disrespectful to instructors, then he can go to the back of the group, do his 10, and return without having missed anything. But If I tell him that he is to leave and not come back, then plans have to be made if we were doing some kind of group project or advancment.

 

I learned discipline when I was a kid and I also learned a respect for authority. The problem with much of todays youth is no respect for authority (Be it the den leader, a police officer, or just another adult in the Pack) and that makes them think that the laws do not apply to them. If we instill values and discipline into our youth, it will make them better.

 

Since when did we become a society where everyone makes the little league team. If you got cut you tried hard and tried again. If we give our kids everything on a silver platter, then that is how they expect it. Make them work for things and they will appreciate things.If they have to do 10 push-ups because they threw something or mouthed off to a leader, just so they can stay with the group, then let them do them. If they refuse, then ask them to leave the activity. There is a good idea, give them two options. I am just getting tired of society saying that we have to GIVE EVERYTHING TO EVERYONE.

 

Back on Topic

 

I think that if used correctly, push-ups can be a form of constructive discipline.

[Mafaking]

 

 

I got one PL that has repeatedly asked to use push-ups as a form of discipline for his patrol. He wants to lord over is scouts and make demands of them. When this fails he wants to force punishment on them. The simplistics tasks assigned his patrol become issues of "they won't do as I tell them". I have taught and explained the "leading by example" routine to no avail. He is a just a lousy PL. Through his eyes the world is seen differently than through mine. In his eyes the world is stratified, those above the line are the ruling class and those below are to be ruled.

 

We scout leaders are charged with producing high quality citizens not Marines. Civic life and professional leadership don't rely on push-ups and neither should the scouts.

 

We do not allow push-ups as a form of discipline in our troop.

 

 

 

 

 

[Beavah]

We scout leaders are charged with producing high quality citizens... I have taught and explained the "leading by example" routine to no avail. He is a just a lousy PL.

 

Yah, hmmm...

 

Maybe the lad needs to be doin' pushups himself, eh? Rather than lecturin' him about leading by example (and then writin' him off as being lousy when that doesn't work), why not try a different approach?

 

Different kids respond to different things, eh? Some lads may need things to be more concrete and tangible.

 

Just don't give up on the lad. His mates elected him for a reason, eh?

 

Beavah

 

 

 

[skeptic]

In my first two troops as a boy, they had a routine of having you stand with your hands out at your side, palms up, and putting a scout book on each one. Its purpose was two fold, in their perception anyway; corrective physical activity, and being reminded that the Oath and Law were sitting on their palms.

 

I told my scouts about this process a couple of times. What surprised me, a number asked to do it so they could see what it was like. Then it became a contest of sorts.

 

Did it work back then; hard to say. Seemed to have few real problems; but that was back in the day that respect was expected, period.

[eagle1977]

I like the way mafaking is looking at this. We are not creating Marines and we are not supposed to be a paramilitary organization. When you are in uniform as a member of the military follow their rules and do as they say. The need for absolute obedience to rule and order is a military objective. However, why should we subject T-1, struggling to learn a new way of interaction within the troop to having the strictest of discipline and order? They are not soldiers subject to UCMJ!

[John-in-KC]

I must agree with Eagle1977. In fact, my youth was when the leading edge of the greatest generation were 40-somethings headed to 50-somethings. They DID use those techniques on us, and I can tell you running laps in leather dress shoes (the whole troop did it) HURT.

 

One ASM, a once-Marine, used to talk about esprit d' corps a lot.

 

I'd rather talk about camp cooking

[SctDad]

I never said that we were training marines. As a matter of fact I only mentioned the military in general.

 

Get off your anti military kick and look at the issue at hand.

 

Just think of it this way. EVERY unit has different ways of instilling discipline, your way may work for you, it may not work for me.

[Beavah]

Yah, one thing that hasn't been mentioned is that an active-task form of discipline like doin' pushups often works well for ADHD lads. In ways that a timeout or a lecture really don't.

 

It can be just fun, eh? Doesn't have to be Pappy's Young Marines.

 

Beavah

 

[eagle1977]

SctDad if you are referring to me in your get off the anti-military rant, you can stand down, sir. I am an Army veteran of 12 years and I do not have an anti-military bent in anyway. I have done my fair share of pushing several CONUS and OCONUS installations deeper into the ground. Simply put I was saying, rather clearly, that these boys are not a paramilitary force and not subject to UCMJ. They are in fact merely boys seeking a path to being successful adults. Why can't we all simply remember that and let them have fun, learn from their mistakes without belittling them, and grow under our tutelage. I was never punished either physically or psychologically in the name of Scouting (accept that time my brother, as my patrol leader, had us all pick those little black jelly beans along the trail:))

 

If a lad does something that alters the enjoyment or health and safety of other Scouts then, by all means, there should be a consequence for his actions. Cleaning the latrine after someone willfully sullies it is a lesson in practicality and can be handled without being demeaning. However, saying that behavior x, y, and z will result in your cleaning the latrine is not a productive means of instilling discipline.

 

If we want to have Scouting thrive and continue into its second century then we need to be mindful of the changes in the processes of discipline. The boys are not seeking admittance to the Citadel or West Point. They are seeking an opportunity to be with boys their own age and having fun in the outdoors. If we can instill learning and maintain the fun atmosphere we have accomplished our mission.

[Mafaking]

 

I think the anti-military was directed at me.

 

Actually for as many pages as this thread is, it is still mostly on topic. That's a positive change.

 

Now as far as the anti-military assertion "kick" I am on this is a bit of a puzzle. I only have one post in this thread and it came on page three. Well after several other posters referenced the military and push-ups. But for the record I am not nor could our troop be anti-military.

 

Let's continue with comparisons, adults lead by example. One of the committee member slacks off and isn't prepared for an event during a weekend outing. He should be made to do push-ups. Wait! you say, he is an adult volunteer in community youth organization, push-ups are out of place. I try to treat the scouts as I would an adult and lead by example, I would never demand an adult give me ten.

 

You can't pick and choose program elements. Push-ups work in the military because it fits in with the over all program. Conformity and discipline are so paramount in this organization that for a few months you live sleep and eat only as the instructors dictate.

 

Sports too. Push-ups may work there but the coaches set the plays, determine who plays what position and winning is the score card.

 

Would 4H use push-ups? Debate club? Science club? Student forum?

Do public schools?

No!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Eagledad]

>>Would 4H use push-ups? Debate club? Science club? Student forum?

Do public schools?

No!

[SctDad]

Eagle1977 and mafaking

 

I apologize if I came out sounding like I wanted to teach my cubs military maneuvers and stuff like that.

 

I have found in my experience (as little as it may be) some things that work. I had some boys that were running around our charter like they lost their mind. Something that I do not tolerate as they are kind enough to let us use the building for just about anything that we need and they are very accomidating. I had the culprets do 5 push-ups for the infraction (all culprets including my own son).

 

I have had some parents that like my way I run the meetings in that I do not allow the boys to run around, like i said, like they have lost their mind and we were on a free for all.

 

As for the push-up issue. Use physical corrective actions with care. Remember that they are young boys and may not have the physical strenght to do more than 10 - 20 in a given amount of time. Do not make them do sets of 50. I would have a problem with that. I am not in the physical shape that I was when I was in. I would never cause a boy to go into what i remember as "muscle failure" as I remember how much it hurt. I think that corrective actions should fit the situation. If it is not working then find what does work.

 

Every pack/unit is different. something may work for your unit that does not work for mind. Eagledad said that they tried the letter writing method. I think that would be good for one group of older scouts, but for my tigers that would not work. They may be too young and it would possibly take too long to complette the task. They may be better suited with a 5 minute time out. The above example worked for us as the boys quit running and they went to another activity.

 

I withdraw my anti-military statment. I was just afraid that it would cause a complete spin that would run into a thread that had been hijacked.

 

 

[Eagledad]

>>Eagledad said that they tried the letter writing method. I think that would be good for one group of older scouts, but for my tigers that would not work. They may be too young and it would possibly take too long to complette the task.

[SctDad]

I would have to go back to the original question that we were presented with.

 

Are push-ups coporal punishment?

 

I think that if they are used incorrectly they can be. Use them with caution and only if they work.

 

Find what works for you and use your methods wisely.

[Gunny2862]

No Pushups are not Corporal Punishment, neither are Wall sits, Bend and thrusts, Situps, Monkey (word deleted by poster), 8 and/ or 10 count body builders or just about any ohter exercise that doesn't involve another person acting on your person..

 

None of the above has been used in my Troop. To date. To my knowledge.

 

Are they appropriate without being corporal punishment?

Now that's the question!

 

I object in many situations to their being appropriate for Scouts. But can see given the right circumstances where they could be useful. The trick as always would be in seeing that they weren't being abused, or used as a crutch preventing the development of better Leadership skills.