push ups

[CA_Scouter]

OK, then, would singing Kum-ba-ya be considered corporal punishment?

 

[packsaddle]

Making him listen to ME singing it would be.

[Nachamawat]

IMHO there is no place in Scouting for using physical training as punishment. Should you decide to establish an actual physical fitness training program that was used as a tool to educate your Scouts in the proper way to build muscle and endurance, with all members of the troop participating including adults, then I say go for it.

 

However, there should be no discipline performed that is demeaning, detrimental, or embarrassing. I thought this organization is for fostering the youth of our future.

 

 

[desertrat77]

As punishment? No, never.

 

To promote physical fitness, like getting ready for a backpacking trip? Yes. Have the whole troop do them. Leaders too!

[DeanRx]

"However, there should be no discipline performed that is demeaning, detrimental, or embarrassing. I thought this organization is for fostering the youth of our future." .....

 

I thought this WAS the definition of discipline?

 

If you make a scout sit-out an activity as a form of punishemnt, are you not embarrassing them? You are denying them the opportunity to participate.

 

I have not used push-ups (as I have cubs), but there have been times jumping jacks and "run a lap" has been employed for an individual or a small group to help burn off excess energy and promote betting listening skills in the scouts.

 

I don't think its as much the type of punishment (as long as its not striking the boy), its the context in which its applied. I have done the jumping jacks with my scouts. The "run a lap" was an everyone gets to do it b/c scout A and scout B cannot stop jabbing at each other during the meeting. The positive peer pressure took care of any misbehalving after that!

 

At pack meetings, I have often commented publicly that the Tigers are the first ones to quiet down when the cub scout sign goes up. This is often followed with a small verbal jab of, "You wolves, bears, and webelos are being shown up by the tigers..." - guess I shouldn't use this approach as it might EMBARRASS one of the wolfe, bear, or webelos scouts, eh?

 

As a Boy Scout, I was made to haul picnic tables from one end of a campground to the other as punishment for acting out. Don't get started on how the PL's chose who got the task of taking the trash bags to the dumpster... but it was never the guys who did a good job of following the camp rules... was that a pad form of punishment? It was physically demanding, stunk like crap and was demeaning. If you were on trash patrol (unless you were crazy enough to volunteer for it) it was just assumed by the other scouts that you had gotten into trouble of some kind.

 

Yes, we are to be "fostering the youth of our future". Part of that fostering is giving them real life examples of consequences (both positive and negative) for their choices and actions.(This message has been edited by DeanRx)

[cyboji59]

I supose it depends on how it is dealt out. I seen a leader dish them out in groups of 10 as an attention getter when he is speaking. He makes fun with it and the boys do it with a smiles on their faces. No worse than a PE class or a karate class. If it's meant in a demeaning way - I'd say no. Not what you say - but how you say it.

Scouting is supposed to be fun!

[Eagledad]

>>If you make a scout sit-out an activity as a form of punishemnt, are you not embarrassing them? You are denying them the opportunity to participate.

[Eamonn]

I'm a little fellow.

I have never been near a gym (Other than the gyms we had at school. We had five!! Still I remember a report card that came home where the comment from my Gym Master was "Who is he?")

Other than a bad back, I'm not in bad shape. I think this is due to my taking the dogs out everyday.

I look at the inmates in the correctional facility, thee guys have little else to do but pass their time body building.

I have watched some inmates work out and I'm amazed.

These guys who may never have done a days work in their entire life, who moan and groan when asked to do anything spend hour after hour doing push-up, pull-ups and that sort of thing.

I think if someone were to say that this sort of thing was no longer allowed thy would see it as a punishment.

I love to read, OJ hates to read; asking him to read a book would be his idea of being punished.

I remember a play that was on the BBC, about two guys, one loved classical music and the other loved rock music, both ended up in Hell, where they were forced to listen to the others music for all of eternity.

Punishment is how the person who is being punished sees it.

 

We are in an organization that prides itself on teaching young people how to make ethical choices.

I see this as them wanting to do the right thing because it's the right thing.

I don't see it as doing the right thing because if I don't there is going to be a consequence -In this case push-ups!

I'm with Barry on us giving the youth we serve the freedom that maybe they don't get else-where.

For us to get to where we want to be we have to give the youth enough space to be able to make the choice.

If we want them to be trusted we need to place them in a position of trust, if we want them to be loyal we place them in that sort of setting, at the same time we don't build up sets of consequences for when they fail.

To do so limits their choice and they could end up just doing what is needed so as to avoid the consequence.

I think it's sad that so many of the adults who serve the youth fail to understand this.

I would hope that no adult would allow a youth member to impose a punishment on another youth member.

This is just not a good idea and could open a can of worms that might have dire consequences.

I'm thinking along the lines of Lord of the flies.

Eamonn

[Twocubdad]

In my mind push ups, when used in this manner, are corporal punishment and I would never use or allow it to be used in our troop.

 

What happened to praise in public, criticize in private? How about the concept that we don't "punish" Scouts, we expect them to behave as Scouts and if not they simply don't participate as Scouts?

 

No, push ups are not banned in the G2SS. We've been down that road enough to understand that BSA isn't going to create a list like which will never include all the knuckle-headed things people will dream up.

 

I think many of you are confusing discipline and punishment. Discipline is training which makes punishment unnecessary. Scouts who fail to behave as Scouts aren't "disciplined." A Scout is taught to "be disciplined" or "have discipline" and thereby avoid behavior which would lead to punishment.

 

Scouts in our troop who fail to behave as Scouts are not punished. Punishment is properly the responsibility of the parents. Scout may be removed from the activity and given the opportunity to correct their behavior. Removal may be just long enough to be reminded what they should be doing up to permanent expuslion from the troop. I will allow that sometimes these reminders may be rather loud and forceful. And I'm sure that some of the boys would just as soon "drop and give me 20" as listen to another lecture.

 

Other stuff, like singing to have a lost item returned, is out too. I've seen little guys break down crying when forced to sing to have an important item returned. Is that Kind? Wouldn't the Friendly, Courteous thing be to return the item to the Scout without humiliating him? Hauling trash or extra KP duty? Nope. Those are things we have to do as part of normal patrol activities. If I have to take out the trash and clean up after measl as punishment, what does that say the the chump who did those things yesterday because it was his responsibility? Or the guy who got a free pass on his turn at the duty roster?

 

 

[evmori]

OK, then, would singing Kum-ba-ya be considered corporal punishment?

 

 

Yes.

 

Is cleaning the latrine as punishment the same as doling out push-ups as punishment?

[John-in-KC]

If cleaning the kybo is given out for an offense not related to dirtying the kybo, then yes, it can be perceived as a punishment.

 

Now, if Billy took a dump on the floor of the kybo, instead of using the hole, then yes, cleaning the kybo is his basic responsibility, not punishment.

 

In giving out Article 15 non-judicial punishment in the military, we gave out "Extra Duty" (taking away free time of Troopers) as one of the punishments. Cleaning the latrine was a common task given to Troopers under punishment. Why? Because cleaning the latrine was usually totally unrelated to the offense in the first place.

 

My take.

[Nachamawat]

I think Twocubdad has the right tone and attitude in his response. When I feel compelled to respond to a unsafe or incorrect action I always take the "offender" off to the side and quietly, constructively explain why his action was not in keeping with the Scout Law or Oath.

 

Those who learn that a certain action will illicit a certain negative physical response will simply learn to do that action out of sight of others.

 

This topic got me thinking about what Baden-Powell would say and I found this quote at USScouts.org:

 

"These objects are to a great extent lost if the camp be a big one. The only discipline that can there be earned out is the collective military form of discipline, which tends to destroy individuality and initiative instead of developing them; and, owing to there being too many boys for the ground, military drill has to a great extent to take the place of scouting practices and nature study." B.-P.'S OUTLOOK Some selections from the his contributions to "The Scouter" from 1909 - 1941

 

Of course B-P is referring to having smaller numbers in a camping environment, but it appears to me that he is still talking about Scouting discipline in general.

 

From the same article another quote:

 

"Too much drill, too little woodcraft, is a usual fault. To make the lads disciplined while using their own wits is our aim -- much on the principle of the sailor's handiness, and not so much on the machine-like routine life of the soldier. Stick to the lines of the handbook and develop on them."

 

evmori you asked: "Is cleaning the latrine as punishment the same as doling out push-ups as punishment?" My thoughts are simply as a punishment, yes. But in response to a boy being out of control and purposely causing the latrine to become unfit for use by others, then he should be brought to understand that his actions caused him to be responsible for cleaning up after himself. Cause and effect used with empathy will get you a far better, longer lasting reaction than a red faced reaction ever will.

[OldGreyEagle]

Never understood the mentality of giving out pushups as corrective action, or discipline for that matter. You have two scouts caught doing somehting minorly disruptive, you say give me 10, the youth who also wrestles, snaps off a quick 10 as fast as you can blink your eyes, the other youth struggles mightily to get 4 done.

 

What have you taught? The wreslter figures, heck if this is as bad as it gets, I dont have to follow the rules, I can just do pushups.

 

The other kid figures, just wait until I can do pushups as well as my buddy, then we will rule the roost.

[evmori]

You have two scouts caught doing somehting minorly disruptive, you say give me 10, the youth who also wrestles, snaps off a quick 10 as fast as you can blink your eyes, the other youth struggles mightily to get 4 done.

 

What have you taught? Well, to the non-wrestler hopefully you do something minorly disruptive & ya gotta do something ya don't do very well. Now as for the wrestler, next time, privy clean-up!

[Beavah]

Scouts in our troop who fail to behave as Scouts are not punished... Scout may be removed from the activity and given the opportunity to correct their behavior.... I will allow that sometimes these reminders may be rather loud and forceful.

 

Yah, I just had to chuckle at this, eh? I reckon that every lad in Twocubdad's troop would talk about this as being punished / yelled at / etc. Essentially, pullin' a kid out of an activity and yellin' at or lecturing him is just another form of punishment. One that can be far more embarrassing than snappin' off a few pushups. I've seen lads quit scouts after such incidents.

 

The point is that boys occasionally commit minor infractions. Every unit has to have some "stock" thing that they use to deal with minor infractions. Doesn't really matter what it is so long as it serves as that small reminder / time out. It can be pushups, it can be songs, it can be sittin' out for a bit, it can be an extra round of KP, it can be losin' dessert privilege for the evening. Whatever. As long as it's fairly and consistently applied, it becomes part of that troop's way of doin' things and it's fine.

 

Personally, I think yeh should save the removed-from-activity-lectured-by-SM thing for more serious infractions, eh? But that's just me.

 

No matter what you choose as your response to minor incidents, there will be some first year boys who need time to get used to it because it's different than what their parents use. If yeh do push-ups, there may be a boy who can't and who is really embarrassed and so yeh have to adapt. If you do lectures, the same thing happens, eh? I've seen lads collapse in tears because a SM pulled 'em out of an activity and lectured them. The reverse is also true. Some boys love to be a ham, so singin' is a reward rather than a consequence. Some smart-alecks love to get in a word fight with a SM so lecturin' is a reward rather than a consequence. Boys who regularly clean dishes at home won't think it's very hard to clean a pot, but a lad who has never cleaned dishes at home will feel that's a catastrophically unfair punishment. Just da way it is.

 

So yeh have to choose some "normal" responses to minor incidents, eh? And no matter what you choose, you're goin' to have to adapt it a bit for individual boys, especially young lads who aren't yet used to the troop routine. Be awfully careful about judgin' other troops' approaches just because they're different from what you do. Different is mostly just different.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)