Bad Shooting camp experience with NRA instructors

[Cubmaster Mike]

Sorry to disagree GNX, but "WE" NRA INstructors ( I'm one too remember) do not need to shout all the time. Sure a firm voice should be used if a violation is taking place, but start with that and build up from there. I'm more concerned about the lack of smiles, the lack of encouragement, the lack of coaching. IMHO a lot of people think that "instruction" equates with "coaching."

 

Nobody has commented yet on the lack of uniform but that bothered me too. I have a "NRA Certified Instructor" shirt, but when I am working on a Scout range, I wear the Scout uniform. I think it helps the boys identify with me. plus I look really cool in it.... which reminds me, humor is also part of the program.

 

I run ranges because I want the boys to have some fun. High fives as they enter, handshakes as they leave.

 

I remember about four years back, at a week long camp. Another rangemaster and I split the duties and I ran the archery range while he was running the rifle range. At the end of the week, when I asked my son and his friends what was the most fun, they all immediately said "archery" or "rifle range." But when they talked about the rifle range, they all agreed that "yea, Mr. ===== yelled a lot!"

 

Safety does not equal volume.

[Eamonn]

"I run ranges because I want the boys to have some fun. High fives as they enter, handshakes as they leave."

Cubmaster Mike

I have a long time ago!! Ran the BB Gun Range and the Archery Range at Cub Scout Day Camps (I took the training's needed which at that time were done in Council. I have not kept up to date with what is required today.)

I have no problem what so ever with telling a Lad as he leaves the range "Well done or "Good Job".

Somehow I don't ever see myself doing the high-five thing as they enter!

For me that would kinda set the wrong tone! (If you get my meaning.)

While of course we do what we do because we like kids and we enjoy seeing kids having fun and I agree that kids do have fun on the ranges

But I have always thought that the lessons learned from participating in shooting sports do more than allow the Scouts to just have fun!

I see them learning a lot about learning discipline, following commands, understanding commands and following orders. All these skills are needed by good leaders.

I don't think anyone is saying that there is a need for the guy in charge to be yelling his head off.

I do think the big lesson that everyone needs to understand is that there are times when messing around is OK and is acceptable, but there are times when it is totally unacceptable and on the range is a time when it is not acceptable.

I'm willing to admit that having not been raised around firearms /weapons?? That maybe I'm not as comfortable as others are around them.

I might add that I have been known to raise my voice when a Scout goes above deck without a PFD on! Kinda, sorta the same thing but different!

Ea.

[John-in-KC]

 

 

We'll leave that part be.

 

A range, is a range, is a range. It's a place where we learn how to shoot and shoot safely, it's a place to compete. Depending on whether it's a range season for a unit, or a Basic Training event, the age of ths shooters can run 17-22 or so, or anywhere from 17-50.

 

That's different from Cub or Boy Scouting. We're talking 8-18 year olds, who've not learned discipline. In fact, one of the side benefits of a range is the discipline of following tower or line commands precisely.

 

I remember my first rangemaster, at Camp Whitsett back in the summer of 1968. We had two full days of time off the range before we got to fire. Learned about the components of a .22 rifle. Learned how to use a borebrush, cleaning solvent, and lube. Learned what a good sight picture was. Learned the basics of safety. When we were ready, we went onto the range. I was I think Second Class, but I might have still been a Tenderfoot. Even so, I earned my NRA Pro Marksman award that week.

 

Someplace along the way, since 1968, BSA and NRA moved away from each other. I'm glad we're moving back.

 

When I got to basic training, I learned a whole array of small arms, from the M-16 to the LAW. Ranges are places of training and safety. Inculcate a healthy respect that a pistol, rifle, grenade launcher, hand grenade, machine gun, LAW, tank main gun, or artillery piece has a simple mission: To reach out and kill something.

 

Firearms KILL. Even an old flintlock pistol can KILL. We have to teach the kids to have a healthy respect for the piece of iron they hold in their hands. That doesn't mean in your face yelling. That means teaching. It means expecting, yea demanding, absolute obedience to the line commands from the tower. It means learning that when Tower commands Range, Cease Firing! unexpectedly, the firer comes off position, unlocks the bolt and extracts the round. It means learning to wait patiently while range staff and Tower hustle wherever the need is and sort out the problem.

 

Gunny, what say you? (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

[GernBlansten]

Yes, people can get hurt around firearms. Ranges need to be safe.

But there are two methods to obtain that safety. One is appropriate for youth, the other is appropriate for military recruits.

The problem I've seen is some instructors cannot shift gears. If they can't make the change, they shouldn't be around our youth.

[Gunny2862]

I also agree that yelling AT, verbally abusing, denigrating, maligning and generally causing distress to Scouts has no place on a Boy Scout range.

Heck, unless it's a Combat Movement range or a specific Stress Shooting range(which I've run as well - and think is a lot of fun in it's place - but stress shooting isn't about thinking) I don't like that modality in the military either. They inhibit the thought process of range learning.

 

BUT, as John-in-KC posts,(or as I'm reading him) shooters (whoever they may be) must KNOW when the Tower(Rangemaster) gives firing commands, or movement commands(don't go forward of the yellow line, or the red line) or any other instruction that it really ISN'T a suggestion or guideline.

 

Does that have to be provided in an elevated voice?

I don't know.

Show me your range set up, Show me how many shooters we're talking about managing at the same time, Show me how many qualified range coaches are there and whether we're relaying commands or using a Loudspeaker system. Tell me how much face time I've had with the shooters or are they walking on cold, firing and leaving.

 

But still, if your Rangemaster cannot immediately seize control of any/all action on his range - I question their ability to run it. And a strong "Command voice" IS an essential tool to hopefully stop an unsafe situation from developing into a tragedy, or to minimize the damage already done.

 

In my circles, by the way, I'm the nice one.

[Beavah]

Yah, so what do yeh all think of the notion of requirin' NRA Level 1 Coaching training for a rangemaster in a youth program? I'm not as familiar with the NRA coachin' program as I am with da parallel programs in shotgun sports, but I expect it's also excellent.

 

Anyone done their Level 1 or Level 2 NRA Shooting Sports Coaching certs who can comment?

 

Seems like at least "strongly encouraging" that kind of trainin' would be a good thing.

 

Beavah

 

[JoeBob]

 

 

I can't render a judgement on this scenario, but I would like to toss out some mitigators:

1- Having a difficult to control group earlier in the day, would incline the instructors to be more firm with subsequent groups.

2- Making an example of the first minor violation of safety protocol encourages the rest of the group to be more attentive for the rest of the session.

3- A quiet word aside with the berated individual would go a long way to healing any potential emotional damage.

 

(This message has been edited by a staff member.)

[John-in-KC]

Gunny and I are in absolute agreement.

 

JoeBob, I like your 3d suggestion. The question of patience by range staff cannot be negotiable. A Scouting range has to have redundancy, so people can slip away for 15 minutes and decompress before doing it all again. When you're range staff inside the range gate, your mind absolutely must be on task ... and that means at least the analytic level of knowledge. Observe, assess, decide, act, followup... cycle again. There's no room to "lose it." Period.

[theysawyoucomin']

I hate to hear crap like this.

 

We are here to teach boys lifelong skills and hobbies. The proper mix of firmness, fairness and tact must be observed at all times.

 

Do I raise my voice at times , yes. 100 lbs ago I was an infantry platoon sergeant. I'm not anymore and these kids aren't Marines.

Simply saying to the offending Scout, "Shooter step back from the line!" would have sufficed. When all the people came back to the line prior to "making ready" you could re school the Scouts and say, "No one is to go near the benched rifles while shooters are down range!". And then state, "If something falls off the table leave it there until I tell you to come back to the line"

 

You could even add, "Lad we don't go near benched rifles when some shooters are forward of the line. Imagine how you would feel down by the targets while some one was close to handling a rifle".

 

Simply don't ask these people back.

 

When I took the NRA Rifle cert I must have missed the part that taught you to embarass the students.

 

And yes Ive seen crazy stuff on a range: a WM that threw a grenade about 5 yards(the ECR is 15 meters).

 

Ive seen a Parris Island recruit hold a loaded, hammer back, 1911 .45 in his left hand and rotate it towards a DI's chest to look at where the safety was. THAT'S WHY WE NEVER PUT OUR FINGER ON THE TRIGGER until we are ready to shoot the firearm. I happened so fast it was sureal not even time for a holy s__T

 

 

These two pikers seem too forceful.

 

If you can't run a safe range without being a jerk you won't get many 45 year old men to shoot at the range they normally run. I can be safe and follow range commands without somebody treating me like a fool.

[John-in-KC]

uz2bnowl,

 

I agree with your very last but remember an 8-18 year old Scout is not a 45 year old man with experience and judgment ... and hopefully as a shooter a lifetime of following tower commands.

 

Even so, there's no excuse to humiliate that 8-18 year old Scout. We can do the needed retraining without the humiliation.

[John-in-KC]

uz2bnowl,

 

I agree with your very last but remember an 8-18 year old Scout is not a 45 year old man with experience and judgment ... and hopefully as a shooter a lifetime of following tower commands.

 

Even so, there's no excuse to humiliate that 8-18 year old Scout. We can do the needed retraining without the humiliation.

[DeanRx]

I have not gone through the NRA training, but have served as range OIC in the Army for medical training units... trust me - most MD's are more dangerous with a firearm than any 8-18 y/o boy !!! Guess the docs are trying to drum up their own business or something. Had 3 docs verbally complaining about being forced to be "rodded off" an M-16 range by my NCOIC. Guess what, 3rd doc in line had a live round in the chamber when the NCO rodded his weapon! That shut them up fast about the "stupid rules".

 

Anyways - there is a way to get the point across using a command voice without the need to humilate the offender.

 

A stern, "Step back from the firing line now!" while pointing at the offender, followed by imediate movement towards the offender's station position should get their attention. Any other comment after the behavoir was corrected is just overkill and theatrics on the part of the rangemaster. The whole, "I've been shot before and i don't want it to happen again...." is just someone over-reacting and grandstanding their authority. Adress the issue, correct the offense, make sure the offender knows WHY what they did was wrong, and move on with life.

 

Then - one rangemaster should take the offender aside and quietly explain WHY this was a potentially serious situation. Followed by the standard, "Thats your last warning. If you fail to follow the rangemaster's instruction any more, you are off the range for the day....no exceptions... Do you understand?"

 

Then drop it.

 

I'd say write your concerns to the camp director. They may or may not do anything to address the issue. While I do not support berating any scout, this was their range to run and to not fully support the rangemaster in the heat of the moment undermines their authority. Glad to see that did not happen. Because I have seen it happen on a BSA range.

 

Dad of scout is active duty and took exception to his son getting a warning from rangemaster for placing the weapon upsidedown on the shooting table... thus possibly damaging the site alignment. Dad started in on the rangemaster... Rangemaster explained in a calm, but firm voice that it was HIS range and if anyone took exception to his instructions, they were free to depart the range. I, as CM, had to back the rangemaster. Not a fun position to be in.

 

I agree some of the rangemasters I've seen at BSA events could use some refresher courses on interpersonal skills. Then again - I've never seen or heard of a scout getting injured on a BSA range, so they must be doing their job correctly, even if they step on some toes from time to time.

[theysawyoucomin']

Yes John I agree, The last time we had a fun shoot I wanted to segregate the boys into two groups, who has the Rifle MB and who doesn't? I had the less experienced boys watch the RSO run the range. The "virgins" watched while the more experienced boys shot.

 

 

The only other thing I might add:

 

Both Boy Scouts and Cub Scouts are really good at correcting each other.

 

I always ask the boys, "Who is allowed to call for a cease fire on the range when they see something unsafe?"

 

They know that range safety is everyone's job.

 

After getting the offender to stop offending and getting all the boys back to the line I might say,"Why did I just correct Toby for stepping up to the line?"

 

Letting the boys say it reinforces it.

 

 

I'm still convinced Charles Schulz had it right when the teacher's voice sounded like a badly played trumpet.

 

Another thought which makes it 2 things to add not 1.

The boys want to do a good job, they know what lead can do at high velocities, they know they will get booted from the range if they mess up. They are at a heighted stress level already. I am sure they breathe a sigh of relief when the range is secure and everybody leaves focusing on the fun and not the risk.

 

 

Let's remember a round would not be discharged simply because the offender crossed the line to pick something up. It does not mention that this was a repeat violation or the boy was being difficult, a bullet rolled off the table and the boy thought more about it being on the deck than he thought about stepping over the line.

 

This does not absolve him of the safety violation.

 

Nobody cares if the RSO has been shot before. Did a rifle get pointed his way?

Did a shooter load when he was not supposed to?

 

Sounds way over the top.

 

It's not always the volume, it is what's said. Heck, tell the boys why you are speaking loudly."Boys I'm not yelling I am insuring that everyone can hear me because we use earplugs."

 

Threatening to kick kids off the range is BS also.

 

State,"If you cannot obey the rules I cannot have you risking the safety of the range." Say it ONCE get nods all around from every shooter, then deliver if somebody puts safety in question.

 

 

We can all learn how to better get the point across each time we run the range.

 

Over reacting and jumping a kids tail and then the other instructor piling on is a rookie move or a sign that somebody wanted to be a Drill Instructor but never even had the courage to stand on the yellow footprints.