Approaches to Safety

[tonys]

that's not the ceremony i saw but thanks for the advice

[RememberSchiff]

Never seen it myself, except now via Youtube (thanks packsaddle).

 

It's called the 'Magic Neckerchief Graduation Ceremony" brought to you by

http://www.usscouts.org/clipart/ScoutDoc/PowWow/Books/99_02_YA.pdf

and even mentioned here

http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=145201

So it's been around, I doubt going to Council will help.

 

Done indoors? Dripping acetone on the floor? Doesn't sound safe.

 

I bet your town fire chief would be interested in hearing about this.

 

My town fire chief would require that this ceremony be done outside in a fire pit with a hose or extinguisher handy, like the flag retirement ceremony. If he sees this Youtube video, he may now require a burn permit too!

 

You have a teaching opportunity here. Redo the ceremony but safely - outside, firepit, fire extinguisher, etc. Explain the magic formula and why it is considered a safe controlled magic act or not, and that using rubbing alcohol or gasoline would definitely not be safe. There should be many firemen willing to help teach.(This message has been edited by RememberSchiff)

[packsaddle]

Was it similar to the video? How did it differ?

 

Edit for RememberSchiff: the indoor version would not be allowed here either. So, let's see....we mix the acetone and water in EXACT proportions. And we KNOW that no one will ever miss the instructions and use just the acetone and that one of the boys will NEVER tip over the bucket of 'magic water' or accidentally set IT on fire. Nah!

 

So the SM and I were almost asleep at the camporee. The troop was asleep and all the other troops were also asleep except for a campfire or two here and there. Then we heard a whooshing noise and the tent got a little brighter. Then it happened again. And again. The SM and I puzzled on this for a minute and then we quickly dressed and ran out to stop the boys from a nearby troop from throwing cups of gasoline on their fire. Thoughts of the concept of 'role model' are going through my mind right now.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[Hal_Crawford]

As a professional theatre technical director this scares the bejeebers out of me. It is dangerous and illegal on several levels. Holy cr*p! Open flame in proximity of flammable liquids in a public assembly space. In proximity of children. As Packsaddle points out there are just too many things that can go wrong through failure to follow directions exactly or any sort of human error. The only concession to safety is to say to have a fire extinguisher "just in case". Maybe the writer should have mentioned the type of fire extinguisher. In all likelihood the CM is going to grab the nearest extinguisher at hand, a type A water model so common in schools and churches.

 

So in Packsaddle's scenario someone tips over the "magic water" and it catches fire. At this point the adult standing by with the extinguisher jumps into action and spatters burning liquid all over the stage (cause it should have been a B or ABC extinguisher). At this point it is reasonable to fear that the burning liquid is now spattered onto the Cubmaster's uniform and/or the uniforms of some or all or the graduating Webelos. Hope they learned stop drop and roll in school.

 

At this point an entire room full of cubs and family members are in a panic, stumbling over folding chairs and trampling each other as they try to get to the exits in a dark room. If this is a typical church hall the curtains on the stage are 20 or 30 years old and any flame retardancy has long since expired so the stage curtain could be on fire. How flammable are the other furnishings in the room? Don't ask! Are the fire exits all clear and clearly marked? You don't want to know.

 

Think about the Great White night club fire in Rhode Island. Poorly planned (and unapproved) pyrotechnics and flammable furnishings combine with panic and poorly marked exits to kill about 100 people. This is no different.

 

The warning at the end about "don't try this at home- only trained Cubmasters are allowed to perform this ceremony" is laughable. It should read, "don't try this at home kids, your Cubmaster is an idiot who has just needlessly risked your lives but you have been lucky enough to survive his stupidity, this time".

 

Sorry if I come across as too blunt or too angry about this but these things should scare people and get them angry. Frightening!

 

Hal

[packsaddle]

Hal, I think your words were just about perfect for the situation.

I don't know what Hal's experience has been but I have seen the results for some children with terrible burn damage. They survived - but at the cost of a lifetime of disfigurement and pain, both physical and emotional. My heart is saddened every time I think of those precious lives so badly damaged by fire.

So I agree with Hal's take on this. There is no justification for such needless risk. None.

[Hal_Crawford]

After posting last night it occurred to me that I should have been a bit more helpful in terms of what to do when confronted with a "great idea" like this.

 

Whenever anyone wants to use open flame in a public assembly space the right thing to do is to call the "Authority Having Jurisdiction" (AHJ, usually fire marshal's office or fire chief's office) and say that you want approval to use open flame in a public performance. You need to fully and clearly describe exactly what you want to do. I suspect that with this particular effect, the conversation will end with a firm "no". If the conversation continues the questions asked will be things like "is there a sprinkler system?", "will all scenery and decorations be flame retardant?", "what precautions will be taken to separate the fire from the performers, audience etc?" and "how will the flammable liquids be stored when not in use?" How well and how confidently the questions are answered will make a big difference.

 

If the AHJ is OK with the answers to the above questions (based on the YouTube video I can almost guarantee that they won't be) then they will give you certain requirements to obtain an open flame permit. They may require a fire inspection of the hall and/or a demonstration of the proposed effect. If they are still willing to issue a permit then they will set certain requirements that you are legally required to follow. They may require flame retardant treatment of all scenery, decorations and/or clothing. They may require that you have a rated flammables storage cabinet to store the materials before and after the "performance". They may require a "fire watch" (someone standing by with the pin pulled on the correct type fire extinguisher). Also note that putting out a fire with an extinguisher is not as simple as point and shoot, if a fire watch is required ask the AHJ to provide training in the proper use of an extinguisher. Some jurisdictions could actually require a fire fighter in full turnout to be the fire watch.

 

It should also be noted that many (if not most) jurisdictions would consider the candles used in scout ceremonies to be open flame and subject to a permit requirement. It is up to individuals as to whether they want to open that can of worms.

 

I have pulled open flame permits in several jurisdictions for things like candles (lots of candles) on stage or circus performers juggling torches indoors in close proximity to the audience. In one case (a candle permit) the fire department inspected a university theatre building and issued a citation for over 20 fire/building code violations that were unrelated to the effect. Most were minor housekeeping issues that were quickly fixed but some were for things like the placement of EXIT signs that had been in place for 25 years. Given how much the university had to pay to correct those violations I figure that was one expensive candle.

 

One hint about dealing with the AHJ: It helps if the AHJ understands that you are every bit as concerned about the safety of the audience and performers as they are. It helps if they understand that you are fully willing to comply with any requirements including not doing the effect.

 

On a personal note. I have been to the funeral of a 10 year old Webelo who died in a house fire. The memory of Webelos in uniform serving as pall bearers for their friend is something I will never forget. I do not ever want to see any family or group of kids to go through that for any reason, ever!

 

Sorry for the long post.

[Eagledad]

I will stand up and brag that Ive done the ceremony many times. I wont get into the details about safety, we did an extensive job to be safe. A person would be at more risk slicing potatos for dinner. The mix splattering on folks is impossible, at least the way we did it. I will say that I found indoors better than outdoors because we could control the elements a lot better.

 

You all go ahead talk down something of which you have no experience, but this is a discussion on safety. Oh I understand folks being afraid of what they dont understand. Lots of troops dont allow the uses of axes, hatchets or even saws. As I said before, to learn safety, you have to practice it. You cant just talk you way around it. We asked the experts and they found the ceremony safe provided we used a few safety procedures. Like anything, do it right and you will do it safely.

 

Barry

 

[GernBlansten]

I've seen the magic necker ceremony at every crossover I've attended (dozens) in the last 6 years. Our district has a mountain man who does the ceremony, quite well, that every pack hires. He does the one necker and the scouts don't get to do it. He also does a fun safety briefing before, chastising the dad's to not try this at home. Never an unintended consequence and the new scouts love it.

 

However, it is probably a violation of the fire code.

[packsaddle]

Back when I was CM one of the dads was the town Fire Chief. After one AOL ceremony with all those candles, he and the CO had a chat about safety. I just emailed him with the ceremony we're talking about here. I can't repeat exactly what he said to me but it was not complimentary of the intelligence of the leaders involved.

My advice is to run it past the local Fire Marshall, as Hal said. If you're really that gutsy and confident, invite him to one of the ceremonies and surprise him. That, at least, will conform to the "if you think you can get away with it, take your best shot" approach.

[Eagledad]

>>My advice is to run it past the local Fire Marshall, as Hal said. If you're really that gutsy and confident, invite him to one of the ceremonies and surprise him.

[tonys]

Sorry guys If I was unclear I'm a scoutmaster who was there to receive a scout and I was surprised by the amount of flame and just wanted to know other wiser peoples recommendations as to who if anyone I should mention it to. and jes I love this scouting stuff

[Gunny2862]

I have to agree with Barry on the point that rather than saying "No" - say "Find out how we can do it Safely and I'll support you in doing this." But yet again it's in giving the Boys the opportunity to learn that we fulfill our mission.

 

 

And occasionally they learn just how difficult doing something safely would be and drop the idea for a better one.

[packsaddle]

OK, Eagledad, I'll ask. Did you run it past the Fire Marshall for your town? Did you have the Fire Marshall there for a demo? Inside a building like in the video?

 

By the way, I think Beavah mentioned something about things not getting hot. Cool off, I was mostly responding to the post by Tonys and to Hal. I may be wrong in my opposition to open flames like that in public buildings but if I am in error, my error is not likely to incinerate anyone.

 

Edited to add: Gunny, from what I understand from my fire chief friend, that ceremony can't be done safely. Period. If your fire official disagrees I'd like to hear about it. You tell me how to do this safely inside a public building. I'm evidently not getting this info from our fire official.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[Gunny2862]

packsaddle, and I'll also agree that that may be what the boys find out. But still perhaps it could be done safely outdoors - but for me the fact that the boys had to go find out and convince me is the trick.