Removing Committee Chair

[weasel99]

Is there a proper procedure for removing a committee chair from her position?

[Lisabob]

You need to go to your Charter Org. Rep. Your Chartered Organization (sponsor) should be appointing, or at least approving, your unit's leaders. That is particularly true for the CC and the SM. If reality is that your Chartered Org. has no clue (which is not uncommon) then you have a different set of issues to deal with, but that is the first place to start.

[weasel99]

If by Chartered Organization, do you mean the church that we are associated with? If so, they don't have anything to do with our group other than providing us the space we use for our meetings.

 

The biggest issue we have with the Committee chairperson is her total lack of knowledge of scouting rules and regulations. She gets an opinion in her head and then the next thing you know it's troop law. She does not verify information or even correspond with council. She controls the scoutmaster like a puppet on a string. She has no concern for the rules of Scouting, just controlling the entire situation.

 

Many people are about to transfer out of the troop, but would stay if she were gone. Others who have transferred would come back if she were gone. Many people discussed today about the possbility of getting her removed, but don't know how to go about this.

[John-in-KC]

Lisa has it spot on.

 

Scouting uses a Chartering (licensing or franchise) system, partnering with local organizations. Scouting provides training, support, and program. The Chartered Partner agrees to embrace Scouting as a youth-serving organization.

 

The Institutional Head and the Chartered Organization Representative of your partner are the ones who "hire and fire" volunteers. They're the decisionmakers, especially on removing a key leader. PERIOD.

 

If your Troop has not minded the p's and q's of a working relationship with your Chartered Partner, Lisa's follow-on comment comes home to roost. You have another set of issues to deal with.

 

If you are the SM, you might want to have a friendly talk with your Unit Commissioner and ask for help in going to the Chartered Partner. If you are an ASM, your path is through your SM.

 

If you're just a parent, and not a member of BSA, may I suggest joining the team of Scouters who serves your unit? Then you have skin in the game.

 

Would you care to give more direct examples of what's going on? Your brush is fairly damning and fairly broad, and we can't get beyond the right procedure without understanding your situation...

[Beavah]

Yah, Lisabob and KC have given yeh the scoop, eh? In reality, your troop is "owned" by the church, and they can replace leaders as they see fit.

 

As yeh might expect, about half the time in these cases it's that the CC is actually in the right, and the other folks just aren't quite understandin' the program or the desires of the sponsor. A bunch of other times it's adults behavin' like children when they should be just learnin' how to work with and be courteous toward others with differin' personalities and ideas. Can yeh give us some other information on what the issues actually are?

 

Practically speakin', if a CC and a few committee members and the SM and his/her ASMs are together on an issue, I don't think you're goin' to make a change. The assumption is always that those doin' the hard work of running the program are the ones who get the benefit of the doubt.

 

On a practical level, when the sponsor isn't directly involved, there are other options that might be able to help address issues. One in your case might be to have the other members of the committee talk things out respectfully and ask for a change, or vote a change and present it to the church for approval. Problem is misbehavin' adults tend to not be able to have those respectful conversations.

 

A fair number of committees have terms for their officers (typically one year, coinciding with when the unit "recharters" with the BSA), and the natural thing is to select or affirm those folks at the time. Gives yeh an opportunity to make changes in a natural way without gettin' people's hackles up too much. So at that time yeh can have someone else step forward, and the SM and a couple o' friends of the CC can suggest she step into some other role and let the other person have a shot for a bit.

 

Sometimes the Scouters (Scoutmaster, Assistant Scoutmasters) in your troop can help make a change by talkin' to folks.

 

How yeh proceed depends a bit more on the circumstances, personalities, and what the issues are. There might be folks in your area called "unit commissioner" who can help navigate those waters. Yeh get a hold of 'em by callin' your council office and ask for the number for the "district commissioner" for your area. Mind, now, the commissioners are just friends and advisors, but they can often help with talkin' to folks and with the procedures and whatnot.

 

But when it comes down to it, if the scouters and CC are content with the current state of affairs, yeh can't make a change without tearin' the troop apart. Your real choice is to go elsewhere.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Crew21_Adv]

weasel99,

 

Greetings!

 

You've already received some excellent advice.

 

The great part about Scouting, is that we can take boys with different backgrounds, different family incomes, different religions, and different heritages and they can look beyond those topics and make a patrol and troop thrive.

 

Similarly the Troop Committee, the adults (with various backgrounds, ethics, skills, management/employee experience, and etc) come together with a few different ideas, but should have one goal (or maybe two goals), make the troop succeed and support the Scoutmaster.

 

When Scouts disagree, they seem to get over it in a matter of days. Rarely do they hold long grudges. But when adults disagree, it sometimes completely destroys a Pack, Troop or Crew.

 

I would bet, the Committee Chair is/was the right person for the job at the right time. Probably the only parent that stood up, and said she would take the reins, when someone needed to.

 

But, I would also expect, we may get a little complacent with our jobs from time to time.

 

Possibly, it may be the season for rotating your entire committee? Swapping your Committee Chair to another less demanding position; and moving an eager, one minute manager/administrative guru into the Committee Chair position.

 

 

Since it sounds like your COR/IH are happy with their passive troop membership. (I've met a few good people, but passive as CORs/IHs) As church pastors or youth group leaders, most don't mind making a statement within their troop once a decade or so.

 

If they were active COR/IHs(some are extremely active with their troop/pack/crew), they would select the best person for the job and when needed; remove, replace or shuffle committee positions.

 

The COR/IH would probably ask themselves (and their mentors) What is best for the Troop? Is it better to have a smaller Troop? If we reshuffle, who will become the new CC?

 

The lack of leadership for a committee is a "no go". No matter how little a COR/IH participates, they will not remove leadership without a sufficient replacement.

 

I would wager, even if the COR/IH at your local church does not have a good grasps of whom is in charge and what is going on, their first question would be.

 

Who do you plan to exchange and whom would the Troop Committee like to see as the Committee Chair?

 

Then, would your nominated replacement improve things? or make them worse? or create a different set or issues?

 

If you (or a few committee members) are seeking to remove a committee chair. Then you may have to answer these questions, before you go asking your COR/IH to make a decision.

 

Good Luck!

 

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

 

[frank10]

No matter how many times the mice vote they can not elect a new cat.

The CC does not answer to anyone but the head of the sponsor (and his proxy the Charter Org. Rep.)

 

All other leaders serve the CC.

You can't fire here only beat her into submission.

[donert]

Been here before with the CC..... went to the UC and the COR and the President of the CO and they were worthless......I was a puppet on a string. The TC is suppose to support the Scouts and the SM. Not supporting the SM is undermining the whole Troop program. Who spends all their vounteer time with the Scouts....the SM!!! The SM should have the last say in the program. The SM knows what the Scouts want...a fun program!!!!

[Lisabob]

What donert describes can be the case in situations where the CO (sponsor) neither knows, nor particularly cares, about the unit that it sponsors. Sadly, this is frequently the case and if it is true for you then someone has some work to do in order to educate the CO. That someone may not be you, depending on your position in the unit. It might be an outsider like your district executive (the paid professional who works on the business side of scouting in your area). Personally, I do not advocate the route that donert suggests, where the SM makes the decision about who can, or cannot be, the committee chair. Not only is this not the SM's job, but also it can lead to situations where the SM over-steps his or her power and "fires" anybody who dares to disagree with him/her - ever - about anything. That, in turn, can result in a tyrannical SM who gets so far off track from what the boy scout program is supposed to be that whatever he/she is running no longer resembles the BSA version of boy scouts, which eventually tends to lead to an even bigger melt down. Not saying this is the case for donert, but that is a frequent medium-long range outcome of the path he mentions.

[John-in-KC]

I agree with Lisa. In fact, donert isn't even playing out of the Scoutmaster's Handbook ... most any edition.

 

We're all in it to serve the youth, and Scouting works right when all the moving parts work in concert.

 

What does this mean for the Program Officer (CM/SM/Coach/Advisor) and his Committee Chair? Simple: Cultivate and maintain good relations with your Chartered Partner

 

Is that tougher to do than to write? Ask Lisa for her story, she's been there and done it!

[donert]

I never said anything about firing the CC. The CC was being arrogant and doing thing on his own without consulting with anyone....when it would directy affect his scout!! He was not appointed by the CO...

Also, there were ASM's on the TC telling the SM what to do!!!! Te UC or COR could not find anything wrong with it....a SM was not needed in the Troop..........................

[Melgamatic]

We had a similar problem. We needed to remove a den leader (reasons not important here, but no one was in disagreement and we learned that many people had left the pack due to the den leader).

 

I knew, mostly from these forums, that we had to involve our CO. We don't have much to do with our CO. The Pastor signs our charter, and she is nice to us, but we don't have any other relationship. Only one family out of our 50+ families attends our CO Church. We meet in the local schools we serve because the rooms are better and we sometimes can't get the CO's hall when we schedule pack meetings.

 

So, the removal process involved us meeting with the CO some, getting to know them a little, putting up a bulletin board with our pack's awards, etc, in the hall, and we'll probably do some kind of service project there when it gets nice (like putting mulch down or something).

 

It's an unfortunate fact that the CO has to get involved, but it can turn out to be positive since it will force you to communicate more.

 

We ended up not drumming the den leader out, but we removed them from the charter as a pack leader this renewal. As many people said, it was just easier to leave them off the charter than actually remove them.

 

 

[highcountry]

Time to give back for me. I came to this forum a couple years ago to get the answers to the very same proble.....how to get rid of a CC that was destroying the troop. The folks here gave me the proper path forward and it litterelayy saved our troop that is now reached 55 years of age....much appreciated.

 

We had teh same deal, teh CC from the farther below reaches of the planet. She had been booted from the local cub pack a few years prior and had been dispatched from at least 2 other local youth organizations as well. She had been to training but that was of no help. We too had a large number of familys ready to bolt for another troop, many scouts asking if she was attending an activity before they would sign up etc. Bottom line this person has some severe issues. I was a new scoutmaster trying to learn the ropes and turn a troop around in nearly every aspect you could imagine. Everyone was too busy to volunteer to be CC, even a monkey with a pulse would have been elected over her but no one stepped up so we ended up with her. Within weeks of her becoming CC I was deluged with complaints from parents, scouts and troop volunteers. Over time I tried to bury her with useless tasks in an effort to keep her busy enough so she could stay out of trouble but that was not effective. Over time we put up with her caustic ways and she was becoming ignored by committee and scouts but she still made the troop very un pleasant. I was under the impression from the previous SM that all we had to do was vote her out but I learned otherwise when she refused to go and came here for advice to save the troop before it was lost.

Some of the things that helped our cause it looks like you already have or are doing. I had to put a lot of time doing damage control and over the top relationship building to hold the troop together for the months she did her deeds that hacked everyone off. I had to wait until we had an incident that pushed it way beyond the line in order to start the process. In the mean time, she, by her actions made extreme enemies out of every single parent, scout and adult volunteer so when the rubber hit the road not only did she have no supporters, she had 100% of the troop soundly against her and very outspoken. I also needed time to find her replacement.

The day came of "the Incedent" that I was waiting for. We took a vote and she wouldn't leave, and I found here the COR is the only one who can boot her. Every single adult volunteer and many parents wrote strong letter to the COR on why she had to go. We had a meeting with the CC, the COR the UC and DE. CC dug herself a hole in teh meeting and the COR read the letters. COR was horrified and UC and DE agreed with COR she needed IMMEDIATE removal. She was. UC informed Councel they strongly recomend she has no involvement with any unit in Council and further noted she really should not be involved in youth organizations.

To add to this, she tried to arrange committee meetings afterwards aimed at continued business, we tried to be diplomatic in not announcing her firing and she tried to take advantage of that. COR had to make an offical announcement to clear the confussion, she claimed she was embarrased but she brought it on herself....oh well.

I concur with those here, you need to have the COR boot this person and need to inform your DE and UC. Get as close to 100% parent and volunteer support, in writing if possible and have some strong co supporters so you don't have to take all teh heat. The CC I had to deal with was an exteremely insulting, nasty and vindictive person, my Treasurere, one ASM and my Advancement chair stood up with me in a show of solidarity and helped absorb some of the heat, I did not have to take it all and could lead teh charge, The balance of the troop saw we were solid together and were in ti to win for the troop, we got un wavering support and dispatched the CC in a one month process from the day teh straw broke th camels back.

Good Luck. Volunteering is hard enough, and when you have to deal with total idiots it is probably one more reason many people won't bother volunteering any more.

[MileHighScouter]

The relevant publication is the "Troop Committee Guidebook" Pub.No. 34505B BSA.

 

The relevant training (required for CC and all Committee Members) is the Troop Committee Challenge. If the CC is not trained, there should be no problem explaining that leaders are required to be trained and if she isn't then she can't be registered or in the position.

 

The Guidebook explains the system for CC appointment and removal:

Page 9: "How Your Troop Works. The Scoutmaster. The Scoutmaster IS THE ADULT LEADER RESPONSIBLE FOR THE IMAGE AND PROGRAM OF THE TROOP." The CC never is in charge of deciding program.

 

Page 7: "The Chartered Organization" "Your Troop is "owned" by a chartered organization, which receives a national charter yearly to use the Scouting program as part of its youth work. ...Each chartered organization ... selects a Scoutmaster, appoints a Troop committee of at least 3 adults, and chooses a chartered organization representative." The Chartered Organization Representative is NOT authorized to remove or appoint UNLESS the chartered organization has delegated that power to him or her (which is usually a really bad idea.)

 

Page 13: "Troop Committee Organization and Responsibilities. The troop committee is the troop's board of directors and supports the troop program. ... the troop committee does the following: ...

"ensures that quality adult leadership is recruited and TRAINED....

"ADVISES the Scoutmaster on policies relating to Boy Scouting and the chartered organization....

"Supports the SCOUTMASTER in working with individual boys and problems that may affect the entire troop."

 

Page 14: "Chair [of the Troop Committee]. Duties:...

"Organize the committee to insure that all functions are DELEGATED, COORDINATED AND COMPLETED.

 

 

[MileHighScouter]

The relevant book is the "Troop Committee Guidebook" BSA Pub. 34505B

 

The relevant training is "Troop Committee Challenge", which all committee members are required to have.

 

The Guidebook says:

Page 9: "How Your Scout Troop Works. The Scoutmaster. The Scoutmaster is the adult leader RESPONSIBLE FOR the immage AND PROGRAM of the troop." [NO ONE else decides program; the SM is the final decision maker on program.]

 

Page 13: "Troop Committee Organization and Responsibilities. The troop committee is the troop;'s board of directors and supports the troop program....The troop committee does the following:...

"ensures quality adult leadership is recruited and TRAINED.

"ADVISES [not directs!] the Scoutmaster on policies relating to Boy Scouting and the chartered organization.

"Suuports the Scoutmaster in working with individual boys and problems that may affect the overall troop program."

 

Page 14: "Chair [of the Troop Committee] Duties:...

"Organize the committee to see that all functions are DELEGATED, COORDINATED AND COMPLETED." [The CC has NO authority to dictate anything, not policy and definitely not the role of the SM or the Troop program.]

"Maintain a close relationship with the chartered organization representative and the Scoutmaster......"

 

COMMENTS: I have found that in Scouting many, many, many times the real problem is that nobody really just finds the right book and reads it. Clearly, weasel99, someone should buy the book (its not free) and then at the next committee meeting have the entire committee and the SM go over it and discuss the committee's operations. Also, discuss training and make clear that anyone who doesn't complete training in the next 90 days will be unregistered.

 

I have found that such a course almost always solves the problem. Good people realize the problem and in good spirit deal with it. Real jerks refuse training. Real, real jerks refuse to listen to the book, and then you can get help from your Unit or District Commissioner [remember them?] to persuade the person they must resign or face a formal challenge before the governing body of the chartered organization.

 

Either the SM or the Chartered Organiation Rep can bring the matter to the governing board of the CO. Remember, up above, the SM is directly appointed by the CO and answers to it, not the committee. The SM therefore does not report to the COR and cannot be blocked by a gate keeper.

 

 

 

Good luck, jim