Question About Leader Honesty

[DanKroh]

Ok, I need some advice about a fellow leader.

 

This fellow's son joined cubs about the same time as my younger son, and (being the old hand I was with scouting at that point) I remember that in talking to him, he didn't seem to know much about scouting. Yet, when he became a leader in the pack, he suddenly had knots for Arrow of Light, Youth Religious Emblem, and Eagle on his uniform.

 

Now, after not seeming to know much about Wood Badge when I was going through my course (I just got my beads), he is suddenly wearing a Wood Badge taupe necker and beads. When I asked him about it, he says that he went through the "old course" just after he had aged out as a youth. Makes me go, hmmmm.....

 

Edited to add: Oh, yes, and the fellow also claims that he was inducted into the OA as a youth, even though, again, he didn't seem to know much about the OA when I first met him.

 

I have a strong suspicion that this fellow is wearing all these awards dishonestly. So my questions are several here:

 

1. Is there any way to check on whether he actually received these awards, other than asking him, in a way that isn't going to get back to him that someone has been checking up on him?

 

2. While it bothers me that someone might be claiming accolades that they didn't earn, this fellow does seem to be a good leader, and should I just swallow my suspicions and let it slide?

 

3. What would you do about this?(This message has been edited by DanKroh)

[scoutldr]

A while back, we had a young, single guy helping out with our troop who said he was an Eagle. As part of checking references, I e-mailed his home council asking for verification. Never got a response. He has since moved on, but we had no problems.

 

One tactic you might take is to ask for dates and places (and WB course number) to "complete your records" in Troop Master and Scoutnet. Do this for all leaders, if you don't have the info. If he's been trained through WB, he should also be wearing the Scouters' Training Award knot. If he tries to join the local lodge, they will also probably need dates and/or proof. If you know what council he served and was trained in, they may be able to talk to you. I consider it all part of "checking character references".

[SR540Beaver]

Dan,

 

As to WB, ask him his course number and what council. Regardless of how long ago it was, he will readily remember. Finding out from a council if that course number was one of their's is easy enough.

 

As to OA, are you a member? If so, you should be aware of some ways to determine if he was ever a member. Nuff said there.

 

As to Eagle, ask him about his project and see how long it takes to answer.

 

All that being said, I'm not sure what the best approach is to telling someone that you think they are lying.

[dg98adams]

Not to put a rough spin on it....

 

I think you are over stepping......what is your position?

 

How would you feel if some one asked to see your credentials for or quiz you about dates for awards when you were a kid?

 

In the big skeem of things....is he hampering anything?

 

Are you part of the "secret patch police" I keep hearing about?

 

He could have earned those in his youth (and WB as a young man).

 

It's not too far out there to see boys earning the religious medal as a Tiger or a Wolf, and know they could not tell you the 1st thing about it by the time they finish Cub Scouts and get AOL.

 

I have 2 Tigers visiting my Troop, who were in my pack when I was CM that are just like that. I tied their Tiger neckerchief and announced the religious award at a pack meeting.

 

There are boys getting tapped out for OA that never do more than the ordeal. If this was the case, I doubt if it had much impact.

 

On the other hand, the Eagle knot should have rung a bell, and of course the WB course even if it was the "Old Course".

 

Better to encourage an active parent/leader than to drive them away.

 

 

All this is assuming he is a good leader and not trying to decorate what may be a "slick" shirt.

 

 

[Lisabob]

You know, the funny thing about this is that some of the best leaders I've ever met have none of these accolades, or at least do not publicly display them if they do.

 

With regard to questioning him, I think it would be a waste of your time. It is not that hard to gather enough info about the various aspects of scouting to provide reasonably convincing answers. I was never an Eagle scout, being female, but I bet if I had a gender-neutral user name and if I were so inclined, I could "make up" a very plausible description of "my" Eagle project and the process with no trouble, because I've seen and read about other people's projects and I've done the training to learn the process.

 

My point is, if he's really a liar, he'll just lie when he answers your questions. If he's a good liar, he'll make up a plausible (or at least, difficult to dispute) story for you to swallow. And if he's a bad liar and tells you an obvious whopper, then what? Are you planning to call him on it? If not, how does this help you?

 

If you have your doubts about this guy then I would recommend you not put him in a position where he's in charge of something vital (like the money...). This is more "watching and waiting" and less "let it slide." Just keep an eye on him. Don't forget about 2-deep leadership. If he's basically just a good fellow who is trying (perhaps awkwardly) to fit in, that'll come through. If he's a habitual liar, that too will shine through pretty soon, when he starts revising his history regarding more recent activities.

[GernBlansten]

I really don't see how this would be an issue. It shouldn't have anything to do with his ability to be a leader.

Worst case, he didn't do any of it and is a poser. So what? Is he a threat to the boys?

 

At the risk of hijacking the thread, isn't the uniform to equalize everyone. Once people start putting doodads and bling on, kinda defeats the purpose.

 

 

[John-in-KC]

What Lisa said ... and all the more so if he wants to be a direct contact leader.

 

Caution is always OK when you're talking new leaders. Get to know them.

 

If you aren't the CC, have a quiet cup of coffee with the CC.

 

If you're not the CM (for program side folk), have a quiet cup of coffee with the CM.

 

 

[shortridge]

DanKroh wrote: "in talking to him, he didn't seem to know much about scouting" ... "he didn't seem to know much about the OA when I first met him" ... and "after not seeming to know much about Wood Badge when I was going through my course."

 

As devil's advocate, an alternative interpretation could be that he did indeed earn all those things, but didn't want to come across as Mr. Know-It-All or Mr. Topper at first, and thus didn't make a big deal out of it.

 

Having not been present for your conversations, of course, I don't have a clue what actually happened. If he said "Wood Badge? What's that?" and then turned up with the beads a few months later, yeah, I'd be highly suspicious.

[FireKat]

First - a scout is trustWORTHY and honest. 

 If this scouter is lying about training I would worry about motives for this - YP. Is he trying to gain trust of the boys?  Worst case but one all should consider if someone lies about things.

Second - Nal't is now requiring dates of some training on all direct contact adults for forms and permits (see tour permits). There is nothing wrong with wanting training record of all your adults for the protection of the boys. Now days if it is not in writing it does not exists. Nat'l has no problem asking for remes of proof before granting extensions to boys so they should provide proof of training to all who get it and those people should provide the proof to their units.

Last - what to do with someone who lies for non-threating reasons (ie boost their ego)  - that is one good for discussion.

[Hal_Crawford]

Like some of the posters above I would hesitate to accuse the person or go sleuthing around unless there is a good reason to be concerned. The loser in this will likely be his son who will get pulled out of the pack as soon as dad is accused or his exaggerations, misrepresentations and/or lies come to light.

 

If you do feel the need to dig there are a few things you could check before interrogating the leader. If you are the CC or CM you should have access to the unit copy of his adult application. If not the CC or CM you will need to share your concerns with one of them.

 

The application asks if the applicant is an Eagle and the date earned. If he checked "no" then he should be asked about the discrepancy. If he checked "yes" then perhaps it can be checked with national. There are also blanks on the form for past scouting experience, if he took Woodbadge then he must have been registered as a leader somewhere. Does the info on the application match his story? If not you or an appropriate person can ask him about it to update the file.

 

Again, expect that the leader is going to beat tracks with his son, never to be seen again. Be sure that its worth it.

 

 

[evmori]

I really don't see how this would be an issue. It shouldn't have anything to do with his ability to be a leader.

Worst case, he didn't do any of it and is a poser. So what? Is he a threat to the boys?

 

If he's lying about this what else is he lying about? And if this is all a sham, this man is not setting the kind of example a Scout leader should be setting. That is the issue. Seems pretty clear to me.

[kraut-60]

Anyone who would knowingly adorn his/her uniform with emblems representative of achievments/ranks that he/she had neither been awarded or earned is beneath contempt.

 

A Scout is trustworthy

 

An adult leader who misrepresents themselves by laying claim to accomplishments and accolades they are not entitled to should have their membership revoked....they offer nothing that would contribute to furthering the Scouting movement.

 

This instance that opened this thread clearly illustrates the need for accountability in keeping accurate records of registered Scouters training and awards. Phonies dolled up to try and impress will only fool the folks not yet familiar with Scoutings trappings...but will run afoul of those of us who have been around a campfire or two, therby revealing themselves for what they are...fools and liars.

[GernBlansten]

"This instance that opened this thread clearly illustrates the need for accountability in keeping accurate records of registered Scouters training and awards. Phonies dolled up to try and impress will only fool the folks not yet familiar with Scoutings trappings...but will run afoul of those of us who have been around a campfire or two, therby revealing themselves for what they are...fools and liars. "

 

Why the need for accountability, when in the last part of your statement, the fools and liars will reveal themselves.

 

What a tempest in a teapot. Oh the humanity!

 

In response to this thread, I have removed all doodads and bling from my field uniform. Better safe than sorry. Heaven forbid someone challenge my "trained" patch.

 

 

[Eagle92]

Unfortunately my lodge and I were victims of a fraudulent leader. We had a guy posing as an Arrowman with lots of "expertise" on Native American culture. When I talked to him about dancing and singing, he didn't know what I was talking about, not I what he was talking about.

If you are into Native American Affairs you will know about the various men's dance styles: Straight, Traditional, Grass, Fancy, and Chicken; and the two styles of singing: Northern and Southern. That tipped off my radar.

 

What tipped off the lodge's radar was that not only did he claim to be an Arrowmen, he first claimed to be a Vigil Honor member. He even tried to get Vigil card from national, when the issue was brought to the lodge's attention as no record was found for him. He backed down saying it was a mistake and he was Brotherhood. Again no proof could be found for him, and talking to him he could not answer ANY questions about the OA, questions that any Arrowman, whether active or inactive for 30 years could answer.

 

I know from a lodge standpoint, his fees were returned and the Scout Exec was informed of the situation. I also know that the gentleman is no longer invovled in Scouting.

 

IMO, there needs to be a serious talk with the CC, IH,and UC. If you will lie in one thing, there will be more lies. While I am offended if he didn't earn the religious award, and is wearing it, I do know of folks who have earned it as a CS, but don't remember what exactly they did. I'm one of those. But I do remember what I did for my BS and Sea Explorer religious awards.

 

As for the Eagle knot, that is a restricted item and there is a database than can confirm if he is an eagle or not with some information, ussually the council, troop, and the year of awarding. This ticks me off to no end because I know how much time and energy go into that award. I've seen excellent scouts not get that award because they joined late, or got so involved in HS that they couldn't meet all the requirements.

 

And Don't get me started with WB!

 

Unfortunately with ebay and other web auction sites, you can buy just about anything beads, medals, patches, ad nauseum. very helpful tio the collector, or person who earned soemthing and lost in a fire or hurricane(like me:( ) but also for the poser.

[DanKroh]

First, to answer some of the many questions, I am the Cubmaster for the pack. No, I'm not in the OA myself, but there are ways of finding out all those things that are used to verify membership, especially when you are in an environment where most everyone assumes everyone else is an honest fellow.

 

I have not, and am not planning to, "quiz" this fellow about his credentials.

 

I'm not "out to get him" or part of any "secret police".

 

I actually consider this fellow a something of a buddy. For a while, he ran some trainings for the district, and I often helped him out. My take on him is that he is a rather competitive person, and doesn't like to be "left out". I think this is a self-esteem thing, not so much a real issue of deeper dishonesty or predatory behavior. (Not that'd I'd be willing to bet my professional reputation on that, mind you.)

 

He once mentioned (sort of a preemptive explanation) that the council he was in as a youth was absorbed by another council (which is true, he grew up locally), and implied that the old records were not maintained or properly transferred to the new council.

 

Lisabob, you are correct, he has already told me the about his Eagle project, and of course, it sounds perfectly plausible, and I have no way of verifying the veracity of that, either.

 

I've had this suspicion for about 3 years and haven't pursued it, because I do feel he is a good leader with his heart in the right place. And I don't think it's appropriate to go snooping around in someone's background. But comments on another thread about a national database for Eagle got me wondering just how easy it would be to check things like this if it did become warranted.

 

Just every now and then, I get a little...unsettled by the idea that this fellow may be misrepresenting himself, especially to the youth, and the kind of message that would send if it ever came out. And of course, there are people, probably in my own pack, who would think this is grounds for extreme action. So I'd rather not discuss it with anyone who could figure out who this fellow is, as I do not wish to damage his reputation on a suspicion.

 

Thanks for all the comments and advice.