Cross over and age/maturity

[karen1970]

Hello everyone,

My wife and I are already thinking about our son's future in Boy Scouts. He will be a first year Webelos this comming May. He has a November birthday and will turn 10 this year. We have a very large Bear Den currently and are looking at splitting it when they become Webelos (15 Scouts currently) but still having some combined activities. Our den has a good mix of kids with differing maturity levels and age (recently 8-9 1/2). My questions are as follow: How to split the den...age, maturity level, random? When to cross over boys who earn Arrow of light...all together, when they earn it, ask parents what they want, ask scouts what they want? Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. Dave.

[GKlose]

Hmmm, I don't really have a recommendation, per se, because with 15 you probably have a full spectrum of kids.

 

But, in my case, we did things slightly differently than what is "normal". My son, a 4th grader who turned 10 in September, started Webelos with a small group of 4 total. We could sense that he was losing interest in Cub Scouts, so we asked him if he was willing to do the work in order to finish Arrow of Light by this spring. He said yes, and he is finishing up the last activity badge right now. He did quite a few things with another den (a 2nd-year Webelos group) as well as things with his own den. They both met at the same time and same place. He is mature enough to feel comfortable with both groups. He seems anxious to move on to Boy Scouts in his older brother's troop.

 

So that's one option you have -- you could split along age and maturity lines and take one den all the way through Arrow of Light this year -- and both dens can still cooperate on many activities. You might also want to make contact with a 2nd-year Webelos den (if your pack has one) and it is always a good idea to get Webelos in contact with a scout troop (might help with arranging Webelos camping trips, etc).

 

Guy

[Beavah]

Yah, I think if yeh have a good mix of kids currently, yeh keep a good mix of kids. I'd be hesitant about splittin'; there's often attrition in webelos at least a bit, eh? Plus yeh seem to have a good thing goin', why mess with success?

 

If yeh do split, don't separate 'em into a strong/mature group and a weak/immature group. Keep the mix so da mature kids get to lead and the immature kids get pushed to grow.

 

As for crossin' over in a couple of years, I think that's best to work out with da troops you're lookin' at. Some troops are set up better to take 'em all at once, some like to get boys in dribs and drabs. I think da former is more common, especially in bigger/more active troops. Let's 'em set up new scout patrols, events to get new guys up to speed together, etc. Also it helps to get 'em started as a group in good weather, before they hit tougher camping. So here in the North, startin' a new scout by himself in January ain't real wise .

 

Beavah

 

[RangerT]

From personal experience with my own boys I still believe that the BSA made a huge mistake back in 1989 when they made Webelos a two year program. With a year of Tigers, then Wolf, then Bear its no wonder to me that after a year in Webelos they are ready to move on to something new like boy scouts. With the dismal turnover in numbers of Webelos to boy scouts these days some Webelos leaders feel they failed when in truth the fact remains that four years in Cubs is enough for most boys. 2nd year Webelos get tired of doing crafts and activity badges, they are ready for new challenges and the program does not provide them.

 

In my opinion the boys should crossover when they are ready emotionally and physically,that last year of Webelos should include more combined activities with a troop so that when they do crossover they actually are ready to advance in the ranks in a much smoother fashion then most are currently. As a former WL myself for two years I made sure my boys were able to participate in joint activities with several troops. Of my ten Webelos all of them successfully transitioned into Boy Scouts and seven of them became Eagles so I guess my ideas worked with these guys. Karen, I wish you the best of luck with your boys.

[GKlose]

I've been told, but I don't know this history personally (I can't recall if it was a year or two when I was a Webelos, circa 1970), that the Webelos program went from one year to two years, and is now in its present state, where the second year is optimized to finish by the standard Blue and Gold banquet time in February. In fact, the second year does have a much greater emphasis on connecting with a Boy Scout troop (visit a meeting, have an SM conference, visit a Boy Scout outdoor activity, etc).

 

One of the problems, as I see it, is that some Cub Scout packs treat the Blue and Gold banquet as an end of year banquet. *Every* pack in my town does that. They even hold awards until the banquet. These packs even "suspend" pack operations until the next fall, so the B&G becomes a virtual "end of the program year".

 

Out of the four packs in town, the one we're in has moved up its B&G to the end of March. So after starting late, in October (because September is "round up" month), the pack will be finished up (for the program year) before April. That's a six-month program! With these guys, it's all about the advancement (let's get them their Tiger/Wolf/Bear/Webelos Badge, then we've done our job).

 

I can see why my son wants to move on -- the pack doesn't have much fun!

 

Guy

[Eagledad]

I had 16 Webelos and divided them up into two groups. Made the meetings better because we would have to activities going on at each meeting and have the groups switch after 20 or 30 minutes. Keeps the boys busy. I would suggest two 1.5 hour meetings a month because it is really challenging to plan a meeting with 2 groups without feeling hurried. You can easily fill the hour and half. The one day off a month lets you recharge your batteries and do more planning.

 

I had it easy selecting the two groups because my scouts came from two Bear Dens. But I would suggest that you first have them pick the friends they want to stay with, then go from there. But in truth, it doesnt matter because even though they are in two groups, the den was always doing activities together. So they never really felt detached. Its different from patrols, but kind gets them into the idea of patrols.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Barry

 

[Lisabob]

The troop I've been with runs a fairly structured 1st Year program these days, so boys who join in Feb/March/April get the benefit of that. Boys do join at other times, particularly around October. They are welcome too and we fit them right into an existing patrol. THat can work just fine in some instances too, but it can be challenging for boys who are very shy or insecure to enter into a dynamic where they're the only new kid (unless they know the other kids venues like school). In those cases sometimes we assign them a "cool" and kind older scout to be their buddy for a while until they get settled.

 

What I think it comes down to is the type of boy you are talking about. Some boys want to stay with their den mates, form tight group bonds, etc. Some boys need a break from the group. Maybe there are some strong personalities who rub each other the wrong way or maybe a couple of kids are consistently on the outside of the group anyway. And some boys are less mature or more mature than their den mates too. Those guys probably would be just as well off transitioning on their own schedule, rather than sticking with the group. Boys who are a little immature for their age but who cross over anyway just because it's February (or whatever month you do cross-overs) tend to suffer in their first year as boy scouts and many quit.

 

So in your situation I would have an open discussion with the parents. Let them know the pros and cons of the various options. Talk with the local troops to see what they prefer. And then let the boys know what options they have. If you have some boys who might want to make the move early or late, make sure everybody knows that this is pretty normal and that nobody is dictating that everybody join together. And while you're at it, make sure everybody knows that boys in the den can choose different troops too! THere's no such thing as a den decision about where to go - that's an individual choice.

[Knight]

I've seen that, if the Webelos program is done well, the program will be a full first year of activity badges for the boys and then the second year is doing a some more activity badges but increasingly doing Boy Scout-related activities. In order for the boys to earn all 20, they must go above and beyond by doing some activity badges with their family, over the summer, etc. Traveler is the most obvious choice for that.

 

Our Webelos II den just had their final den meeting tonight. This weekend is the B&G, then next week's pack meeting will have AOL and crossover.

 

If we could do it over again, we might have planned it to get the AOL sooner - but that's Ok.

 

We had one pack that finished their boys up in November - I think that's cheatingthe boys out of their Webelos time and hurrying them along too soon. More importantly, I don't think you can provide a quality program and really do the activity badges properly in a big hurry.

 

Craftsman, for example, should take several meetings, if done correctly. I've had people tell me their son earned Craftsman at a two hour course at a day camp. Physically impossible, in my humble opinion.

 

Remember, the point of the program is the journey, not the destination.

 

As far as how to cross them over - do it as a group. You may have a few exceptions, but deal with those with a special plan of action - for example working with Webelos I to make up mandatory activity badges that were missed/not completed in the first year.

 

As an ASM - yes, it is better to get small groups of boys at at time instead of one or two at a time. It helps build patrol friendships when several start out together.

 

Here is the hot south, Frbruary is the ideal time to cross over. Campout weather is perfect and the boys have time to get practice camping without Mom and Dad for a few times before they head out for a week-long summer camp.

[Knight]

A couple of more observations:

 

AOL - Yes, if boys earn AOL early, have them keep going in the Webelos program. Again, I think if the program is being done correctly, you will naturally end up with the boys completing all 20 in 1 1/2 years.

 

Cross over / Troops - The Webelos program should involve visits to several troops. If you are doing that, you should end up with more than one troop at your crossover. If every single Webelos cross over to the same troop, it may be that the leaders have not really provided the boys with good introductions to different troops (assuming there are several troops in your local area). Every troop has its own features, plusses and minuses.

[Gunny2862]

If the situation is advantageous to the Scout our Troop will certainly take them in at any time of the year -it's better than having them not join any Troop. Getting them as a Group or getting them in "dribs and drabs" is immaterial to me. As to maturity, I can deal with the Scout(he'll grow) it's the "Heli Mom" that gets me.

 

We incorporate them into existing Patrols rather than utilizing a New Scout Patrol, at some point in the near future we may need to open up a new Patrol but it will be in addition to our "Legacy" Patrols. Of course they can choose to be with a special friend or two but by and large they want to be exposed to the "Big Scouts" and not hang with their former Webelos clique. At least so far.

The existing Scouts have decreed that they do not like having a new Scout Patrol, that they think it detracts from their opportunity to share with the younger Scouts and to help them to advance.

In the current situation it is an informal competition between the existing Patrols to see which Patrol can teach its newer Scouts to competency, not just exposure,so they can win a Patrol competitions; and the more they know(the further they advance) the more value the new Scout is to his Patrol. Having a New Scout Patrol in this situation is tantamount to having a whipping boy if they are allowed to compete or a second class citizen if they are not allowed to do the competitions.

edit follows.

I do not, however, think Webelos should cross over before they have had the opportunity to complete their Arrow of Light but do think they should be allowed to cross over at any time of year after completing it rather than having to wait half a year or more.(This message has been edited by Gunny2862)

[nrp1488]

Having been a cubmaster for 9 years, I would think that they will sort themselves out. First, you will have to find a den leader and assistant for the second den. Who they are and where they have the meetings will figure prominently with the parents. Once some parents decide which den they want their boys in, the rest will go with their best friends. Some won't care which den they are in and you can use these to even out the numbers.