re-inventing Boy Scouts

[Eagledad]

>>I suspect that male obesity is THE primary force supporting the "re-invention of Boy Scouts."

[NeilLup]

"If this is how scouting adults treat each other, maybe we are doomed. "

 

I must completely agree with Barry here. I believe that if BP were to hear two adults sincerely discussing or debating the best ways to do Scouting and serve youth, he would welcome the discussion. On the other hand, I believe that if he were to hear adults insulting each other over what Scouting is and the best ways to do Scouting, he would say it represents a grievous misunderstanding of what Scouting is and what the Oath and Law mean.

[Kahuna]

---Perhaps one of the reasons it was changed was because of the good ol' boy network that seemed to develop, being invited, having to know the right people to get into the select group---

 

It may have been that way in some areas, but not in most. It certainly wasn't that way for the national course at Philmont. Anyone who really wanted to go to Wood Badge could. The only "catch" was the week of vacation time, which I admit was a drawback. The reason it was changed is the same reason the rest of the program was changed in the 1970's: It wasn't mod enough. For anyone who wasn't around in that era, "mod" is sort of like the Age of Aquarius or something where everything had to change because the old ways just weren't hip enough.

 

As Kudu says, that same pre 1970's method would work much better today than the "new, improved" version of Scouting that we have.

 

At least re-invention has caught the attention of the print media. There was an article yesterday in the Orlando Sentinel about Latino Cub Scout initiative, featuring pics of a local pack with some Latino boys.

[OldGreyEagle]

Kahuna I can only explain myself from my set of experiences and situation, that is what I am trying to do. I object to the characterization that the whole of BSA are a bunch of money grubbing scum sucking pigs. Perhaps some are, I beleive most are not. To rage against the BSA continually is of no benefit.

[Kudu]

2eagles writes:

 

"Kudu I personally prefer the old course (wasn't able to finish my ticket due to move) -- More so now because the team building is received in the business end by most adults anyway. I was very disappointed in the new course -- in fact after the new course my husband went and taught the same darn thing for his company. Now we need the adults to practice camping and outdoor skills even more. I haven't met an old course woodbadger that doesn't get it -- but I have met several from the new course (including those on staff) who haven't got a clue"

 

Oops! Admitting that Wood Badge is just a corporate business manager course is against the rules here, 2eagles. Now you are guilty of "continual harassment," the gross violation of Scout Law, and unauthorized use of a time machine!

 

The solution is to "Just Say 'NO'!" to Wood Badge until we offer a Boy Scout version for Scoutmasters and Assistant Scoutmasters that teaches adults to train Patrol Leaders THEIR PRIMARY JOB: to plan and lead Patrol Hikes and Patrol Overnights (if only in the context of monthly Troop campouts).

 

When I took Wood Badge it still included the Patrol Hike and Patrol Overnight, but because these Traditional Patrol functions did not fit into the "modern" abstract leadership formula of the day, these activities (as well as the spacing of the Wood Badge Patrols Baden-Powell's distance of 300 feet apart) were never explained. This is why holders of the Wood Badge did not bring the Traditional Patrol Method home during the White Stag era.

 

So it would be helpful to bring back the PHYSICAL STRUCTURE of "the old course" while it is still in living memory, but all of the Leadership Development "team-building" theory should be transferred somewhere else. Wood Badge should teach PATROL BUILDING not "team building."

 

In addition I would clearly label the "Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills" course as an Advancement Method checklist course, and then reintroduce to Wood Badge the bottom line of Boy Scouting, OUTDOOR SKILLS ARE LEADERSHIP SKILLS.

 

The best theory for re-inventing Wood Badge is William Hillcourt's three Patrol Leader skills:

 

1. Be a Leader

2. Be a Friend

3. Be Ahead

 

That and the related "Patrol Leader's Creed" is all the "theory" any Patrol Leader needs.

 

http://www.inquiry.net/patrol/leaders_creed.htm

 

Kudu

 

[OldGreyEagle]

How can you say

 

"Oops! Admitting that Wood Badge is just a corporate business manager course is against the rules here,"

 

When have you ever been sanctioned, edited or otherwise effected for saying so? I don't agree with your opinions, but you still express them here. How can you say what is against the rules when you have no evidence such a rule exists?

[BrentAllen]

Kudu,

Let's be honest here. The current Wood Badge course includes the Patrol Hike and the Patrol Overnighter, as well as the skill instruction that goes along with those events.

 

While I admire your passion for the 300' camping rule, please point out to me where it was ever included in a Scoutmaster Handbook, even those written by Bill Hilcourt.

 

And Patrol and Team are synonymous. Scouting is a game. What do we call a group playing a game? Usually, we call them a team.

[Kahuna]

--Kahuna I can only explain myself from my set of experiences and situation, that is what I am trying to do--

 

Which is the same thing I'm doing.

 

--To rage against the BSA continually is of no benefit--

 

I agree and try not to do it. In fact, the only place I ever do it is on this forum. Scouting has enough old f**ts sitting around pining for the good old days. I just feel we are headed in the wrong direction and it saddens me. I've been part of Scouting for well over 50 years now and would like to see us return to a program that worked quite well for 50 years or so.

[OldGreyEagle]

Sometimes I think we are in a position of betwixt and between. I don't know if I mentioned this, but I didn't take the version of Wood Badge prior to Wood badge for the 21rst Century as it was not available. But I do have a questin for those who did.

 

Could the Wood Badge version before Wood Badge for the 21rst Century or any other version of Wood Badge teach a newbie all the camping skills required for a Scoutmaster? An ourdoorsman? I am reminded of GAHillBilly's thoughts on Scouters who couldn't tell a box elder from a willow, or something like that. Did you learn those things from The Elder Wood Badge courses? Did you learn to identify the Constellations and how to identify the North Star? Was that in the curriculum?

 

If a willing volunteer came to you and told you he has lived in suburban and urban environments all his life and wants to be a Scoutmaster, he confesses he has no outdoors other than how to program a Garmin, would any version of the elder Wood Badges have taught him in 6 days all the skills he needs?

[SR540Beaver]

Good question OGE.

 

The folks who sit on our council's WB steering committee all earned their beads under the previous curriculum. They loved it. Said it was one of the best experiences of their life. As there was no one who had yet taken WB21C, they were the pioneering WB course directors for the new curriculum before becoming committee members. Guess what? They love it too. Say it is one of the best experiences of their life. I don't know, perhaps someone from national slipped something in their bug juice and brainwashed them. But I know a good number of them pretty well and have had numerous conversations with them and have been assured that the old course taught leadership skills in a Scouting format just like the new course. Just a different curriculum. You know, kind of like how science and history text books change periodically. Perhaps it would be helpful for the naysayers to actually experience the new curriculum with an open mind and understanding of the purpose of the course before holding forth with an uninformed opinion. It certianly couldn't hurt since the old curriculum won't return.

[Kudu]

Brent writes:

 

"The current Wood Badge course includes the Patrol Hike and the Patrol Overnighter, as well as the skill instruction that goes along with those events."

 

The obvious question is "Why don't holders of the Wood Badge bring Patrol Hikes and Patrol Overnighters home to their Troops?"

 

Would you tell us more about the skill instruction?

 

Brent writes:

 

"While I admire your passion for the 300' camping rule, please point out to me where it was ever included in a Scoutmaster Handbook, even those written by Bill Hillcourt."

 

Baden-Powell first wrote about it in October 1909, in an article titled "Object of Camping":

 

So it results that Scouts' camps should be small -- not more than one Troop camped together; and even then each Patrol should have its own separate tent at some distance (at least 100 yards) from the others. This latter is with a view to developing the responsibility of the Patrol Leader for his distinct unit.

 

As you know, Bill Hillcourt's Scoutmaster and Patrol Leader handbooks concentrate on training Patrol Leaders to lead Patrol Hikes and Patrol Overnighters without adult supervision. That is what the Traditional Patrol Method means! It is the DEFINITION of what the BSA called a "Real Patrol." In fact the Handbook for Patrol Leaders even includes a chapter on how to conduct a Patrol summer camp without adults, "The Standing Camp being a matter of one to several weeks..."

 

I think Baden-Powell's 300 foot guideline (still used in many Wood Badge courses) provides a reasonable Troop campout compromise for adults who seldom (if ever) allow Patrols to organize their own camping trips without adult supervision, don't you?

 

Brent writes:

 

"And Patrol and Team are synonymous. Scouting is a game. What do we call a group playing a game? Usually, we call them a team."

 

The problem is that after 1972, "team-building" theory (blindfold exercises, etc.) replaced specialized Patrol Leader Training. See "Intensive Training in the Green Bar Patrol":

 

http://inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar/index.htm

 

"Teamwork" is one of the three aims of Little League. Would you use the abstract FORMING, STORMING, NORMING, PERFORMING team development theory that replaced Patrol Leader Training to train a Little League pitcher?

 

Would you use the abstract SMART Goals (Specific, Measurable, Attainable, Relevant, Timely) to help a Little League batter to "set goals that keep him tight and focused," as we do with Patrol Leaders?

 

Brent, I know that you are working on a Traditional Patrol Method in your unit, and I look forward to hearing about your progress.

 

Kudu

[Eagledad]

>>he confesses he has no outdoors other than how to program a Garmin, would any version of the elder Wood Badges have taught him in 6 days all the skills he needs?

[Eamonn]

I have been around Wood Badge courses for a fair while.

The "Old" UK course. The old BSA courses and the new 21st Century course.

I have staffed a lot -Maybe too many??

I have been around just about (Not All) the Training's that the BSA has offered in the past 20 years or so. Mainly because I enjoy them and also because I served as our Council Training Chairman.

Some I have taken as a participant, some as a Trainer and some I have just looked in on.

I can put my hand on my heart and say no matter what I have always but always come away having learned something.

Reading the Course Evaluations after a few of the 21st Century courses, it does seem clear that people who have attended leadership courses for their "Day Jobs" don't seem to get as much out of the course as those who haven't. Some of the material is very much like the stuff that is passed on at these other courses.

Which course is better?

The new 21st Century course is a great improvement over the Cub Scout Trainer Wood Badge.

The new course is a lot more demanding on the Staff than the old Boy Scout course was.

The course (the new one.) might be guilty of trying too hard to meet the expectations of what someone somewhere thought the 21st Century leader needed or expected?

I have met with many of the people who put together the 21st Century course back when it was kinda new. All seem like super nice people who know their stuff.

I like to think that if we really want to take diversity seriously? That we don't ever look down our nose at anyone.

The old timers still have so much to offer, the newbie has new ideas and new ways of looking at and doing things.

Just as we accept just about everyone (Even displaced Brits!!) I hope we never get into any silly sort of "My course is better than your's" contest.

The course we have now has been tweaked and I'll bet will be tweaked and changed as needed in the years to come.

I'm OK with people who say that they don't want to attend. That is their choice.

I do think they are missing out on something good. But I'll respect the choice they make.

I think if we are totally honest there were parts of the old course that weren't so hot and there are parts of the new course that still need a little more tweaking.

At the end of the day each of us is trying to do our best to serve the kids in the community where we live.

These needs are not always the same from community to community, sometimes from Troop to Troop or Pack to Pack in the same District!!

What might have worked wonders for an English Lord 100 years back, might just not work as well for a African American Troop in Philadelphia? But then again with a different leader? It might be absolutely smashing!

Eamonn.

 

[2eagles]

Having taken both courses -- they both have good elements. No the North star ect.. was not in the old course. Now I will go out on a limb. Boy Scouting is an excellent program, however it teaches BEGINNING outdoor skills. When I was involved in mountain rescue - lots of our rescues were Scouts = actually Scoutmasters. Now since scouts are in the outdoors (well used to be) in droves - that is not that surprising. There is a false sense of adolesent know it all that comes from some scoutmasters and leaders ( i generally trust the boys more). Example GPS is great but it doesn't replace topo and map skills. In most of the basic GPS's they will point you say 500 yards in a direction however it doesn't tell you there is a canyon inbetween. Of course right now i am dealing with a troop who is acting as a glorified cub pack with the attitude of i am an adult i know more, i am bigger, your smaller. So i feel abit frustrated. Especially when our older boys 3 Eagles and several life scouts can run circles around them. These boys have taken there skills to the next level out of love of outdoors and understanding there is so much yet to learn. I hate seeing them crushed -- and ready to leave == although they have approached me with the venturing.

The old course did give more camping information - those scoutmasters who eat ect.. still missed the idea. If I or hub. are extended and invitation to eat with them we will but otherwise we are totally self sufficient = and frequently not camped right next door but with in hailing distance. We have always shown the basics, covered smart camp set up (ie. set you tent, dining, wood ready for fire then have fun)and leave no trace (which start with the forest service) then let them have at it. If they need help (ask) we are there if in danger we are there -- otherwise we are just camping too. Do they always follow what shown - nope - but they learn that setting up in complete dark in sort of the pits, starting cooking late means they will feel really hunger and have to wait - plus waiting on tents can mean getting wet if it decides to rain.

[2eagles]

Having taken both courses -- they both have good elements. No the North star ect.. was not in the old course. Now I will go out on a limb. Boy Scouting is an excellent program, however it teaches BEGINNING outdoor skills. When I was involved in mountain rescue - lots of our rescues were Scouts = actually Scoutmasters. Now since scouts are in the outdoors (well used to be) in droves - that is not that surprising. There is a false sense of adolesent know it all that comes from some scoutmasters and leaders ( i generally trust the boys more). Example GPS is great but it doesn't replace topo and map skills. In most of the basic GPS's they will point you say 500 yards in a direction however it doesn't tell you there is a canyon inbetween. Of course right now i am dealing with a troop who is acting as a glorified cub pack with the attitude of i am an adult i know more, i am bigger, your smaller. So i feel abit frustrated. Especially when our older boys 3 Eagles and several life scouts can run circles around them. These boys have taken there skills to the next level out of love of outdoors and understanding there is so much yet to learn. I hate seeing them crushed -- and ready to leave == although they have approached me with the venturing.

The old course did give more camping information - those scoutmasters who eat ect.. still missed the idea. If I or hub. are extended and invitation to eat with them we will but otherwise we are totally self sufficient = and frequently not camped right next door but with in hailing distance. We have always shown the basics, covered smart camp set up (ie. set you tent, dining, wood ready for fire then have fun)and leave no trace (which start with the forest service) then let them have at it. If they need help (ask) we are there if in danger we are there -- otherwise we are just camping too. Do they always follow what shown - nope - but they learn that setting up in complete dark in sort of the pits, starting cooking late means they will feel really hunger and have to wait - plus waiting on tents can mean getting wet if it decides to rain.