re-inventing Boy Scouts

[Bob White]

Chicken Little evidently lives on as a Scouter.

 

The BSA would not be the first or only organization that has made adaptations in order to appeal to a variety of cultural heritages.

 

Change can come in many fashions. Simply offering a variety of program options rather than what is currently offered would certainly be a "re-inventing" in the eyes of many people.

 

Unti, that time however nothing National has done or is preparing to do has any effect on your next meeting or outing. So the sky is not falling.

 

AS an aside, I'm not sure who Shortridge was channeling but I believe he tuned into the wrong channel. The Charter organization does not own the program...they own the unit. The BSA owns the program and the charter organization agrees to follow it.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Stosh]

I guess I don't see it so much as a Chicken Little type of approach in as much as a slow altercation of the original intent. Whereas the program had a certain boy-leadership focus, over the course of the past 40 years it has "changed". For good or bad it has changed. So one must step back and evaluate the situation. Is Scouting as strong as it was 25 - 50 - 75 - 100 years ago? If not, what happened? Did the world change, did the people change or did the program change?

 

Scouting used to be a prestigeous, honorable entity throughout the world. It marked it's path by it's own definitions. Can it still be said for today's program?

 

If one cannot answer these questions, one must wonder what happened along the way and if it isn't what it once was, can be resolved?

 

Stosh

[SR540Beaver]

Change is enevitable. When I was a kid, we had a big black and white console TV with 4 channels that went off at midnight and I got to be the channel changer. Today I have a 48 inch HD flat screen with well over 100 channels 24 hours a day and can record and play back any show I want on a hard drive.

 

Mom used to cook every meal from fresh ingredients on a stove. Going to a restaurant was a couple of times a year treat. Now frozen foods, microwave meals, delivery, carry out and multiple trips to eateries per week is the norm.

 

People used to dress in their finest clothes and go to a house of worship and show reverence toward their God. Today many churches have laser lights, smoke, rock band music and people attend in their shorts and t-shirts while drinking a Starbucks and watching their "worship leader" on a big screen at a satellite location.

 

The list is endless.

 

Times change. Society changes. Organizations change to stay relevant to the times and society. If not, they become footnotes in history.

 

Do I like it? No. But that is the fact of the matter whether I like it or not.

[Bob White]

This is where comparing everything to B-Ps original program and original intent is so flawed. The original program was written for teenagers in Victorian England. B-P had no expectation that it would ever spread to so many countries and cultures or last for 100 years.

 

His original goal was to impact the huge juvenile crime problem in his country and to better prepare young men for military service.

 

Even Baden-Powell changed his vision of scouting during his life time, perhaps its time others did as well.

 

Other countries with different cultures have adapted the Scouting program to their specifc cultural needs. Few other countries have the variety of cultural segmentation found in the US.

 

Why shouldn't the BSA be able to adapt some of the program elements to fit the cultural differences of the US populace?

 

So many of you complain in the past about the BSA's loss of membership and their lack of marketing. Here they are addressing both issues and yet you still complain.

 

Bottom line is that these are BSA's programs. We have been offered the opportunity to deliver them to the units of their chartering organizations. You do not have to volunteer to be in a program you do not like.

 

When the BSA changed to allow women as Scoutmasters some leaders quit, others took their place. When the uniform changed some leaders quit, others took their place. When the inner city handbook came out some leaders quit, others took their place. If the changes that develop from this new marketing strategy are not to your liking no one will make you be a scout leader...others will take your place.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Eamonn]

All of us know and are aware that change is inevitable.

How we manage it? Seems to be a very personal thing.

I hate seeing winter come along.

I dislike the cold.

I do ensure that I'm ready for it. Making sure I have the furnace checked and a good supply of heating oil.

I dress for the cold.

But the fact remains that I don't like it.

HWMBO loves winter and has a totally different outlook on this winter season than I have, but she still makes much the same provisions that I do.

Some adults in Scouting seem to want to somehow safeguard what they see as being Scouting. At times when I chat with these people the organization (whatever that means??) seems to come first and the boy/youth come a little later.

Many of these guys are great guys and wonderful Scouter's. But they just like things as they are and see any change as a step on some sort of downward path.

Then there are some who seem to want to change everything!

Sadly many of these people seem to focus on one or two things that they don't like and are willing to throw the baby out with the bath-water.

I'm not exactly sure where I fit into these groups!

To be very honest, I really don't find that the "Organization" gets in my way!

I'm free to do do just about anything I want to get the job done (The job being meeting the vision and mission.)

I like to think that I'm open minded enough to still be able to see the world through the eyes of the youth that I'm trying to serve.

I'm happy to allow people to learn from their mistakes, even if at times it does upset them.

I'm happy that I have a sound foundation of the "Old" traditional skills, but am willing to learn the new skills that are out there and the youth are using.

I'm 100% sure if I wanted to make an all out effort to recruit any group the local Council would do nothing to prevent me doing so.

 

I bumped into a old time Scouter from our District the other day. A super nice fellow and a great asset to our District.

He was having a moan and groan that since the Council newsletter became only available via email that he doesn't know what is going on. I offered him one of my older laptops. He refused saying that he wanted no part in this new stuff.

Sad as it might be there is just way that we can help people who don't want to be helped and are unwilling to change.

I really don't think that the sky is falling.

I do think that we are going to see some changes. But for most of us we will continue to do what we do trying to deliver the best possible program to as many kids as we can.

Sure the uniform might change, we might recharter on line, we might receive more training on line, the YP guidelines might become a little more stringent.

But for me it's all about relationships.

I enjoy the company of the adults in Scouting I really enjoy the youth we serve I think it's a gift to be able to watch them mature and grow.

Maybe I re-invent myself everyday?

Or maybe I'm heading the way of the Dodo bird?

As of right now I'm happy and no one is pestering me.

So life is good.

Eamonn.

 

[SR540Beaver]

Hear hear! Life is good. Happy New Year Eamonn!!!

[Kudu]

"I really do hope the initiative succeeds. It can only strengthen Scouting."

 

All of this racial sensitivity crap can only HARM Scouting.

 

Or, more precisely, what little is left of Scouting after the last great inclusiveness "re-invention" of Boy Scouts in 1972 when we added rats and cockroaches to "signs of wildlife" so that we could eliminate camping as a requirement for Scouting's highest award and (more importantly) for Patrol leadership.

 

That is NOT an exaggeration. To appeal to the indoor white business executive's idea of how to expand into the urban "market-share," any "modern boy" could earn Eagle Scout and (MORE IMPORTANTLY!) be a Patrol Leader without EVER having camped in the woods in his entire life.

 

To this day any modern couch potato can STILL earn Eagle Scout without EVER paddling a canoe or walking into the woods with a pack on his back!

 

Outdoor skills are now even more segregated from the "modern" CEO model of leadership by defining them as "Advancement." Look at page 8 of The Patrol Leader Handbook, the job description is all about office manager skills.

 

But before the 1972 BSA cultural revolution, Patrol leadership was ALL about the ability to lead a Patrol into the woods for the day or overnight without "adults of character" hovering side by side to improve your character.

 

Were serious about this, said Rob Mazzuca, chief executive of the Scouts. This is a reinventing of the Boy Scouts of America.

 

Remember that this Rob Mazzuca, hired the year after the BSA removed any required "outing" from "Scouting," is the guy whose vision statement of the future is to lure boys indoors so they can sit in front of computer screens "side by side with adults of character:"

 

"You can teach a kid about character and leadership using aerospace and computers. The secret is to get them side by side with adults of character...We recognize the evolving science of leadership. We've had CEOs on our board say they want to send their people to Wood Badge, our adult leader training program, because we use state-of-the-art techniques."

 

Who needs Patrol Leaders when you have the "Adult Association" state-of-the-art Wood Badge science so loved by the millionaire CEO golden parachute crowd? Does anyone wonder why in 1972 the indoor office managers removed "The Scout Way: A Game, NOT a Science" from the official Aims & Methods of Scouting?

 

Hal writes:

 

"How will an influx of Latino scouts play out at a camporee or summer camp?"

 

Up north my Troop was at times about half Latino and black. We never had problems with white Troops, but sometimes there was friction with staff over the Cub Scout "Make it Fun" mentality that substitutes infantile distractions for the pre-1972 Patrol-based outdoor adventure that we stressed in our own Troop.

 

For instance one year at summer camp the new Scouts who picked the first year program wanted to drop out after the first day. This was a rugged Boy Scout summer camp in the Adirondacks with Patrol cooking (no Cub Scout dinning hall or Wood Badge salad bar contractors)! I caught up them on the trail on the second day. All of the first year participants except for our Scouts were covered in mud from an obstacle course that had been flooded with water to make it fun. Our Scouts were all clean. It turned out that our Scouts had refused to participate in the "Make it Fun" activities as soon as the staff had started to alternate a game of "Duck, Duck, Goose" with each advancement requirement checked off the list.

 

So we pulled our Scouts out of the first year program and set up our own skills instruction for those who were interested (I encourage first year Scouts to take Swimming, Canoe, and First Aid Merit Badges and not to think about Advancement, but water-based activities are not popular with many black Scouts).

 

The mud obstacle course looked like fun to me, but it was simply beneath the dignity of our "Scouts of color." They were too cool for that, which in turn tended to influence our white Scouts.

 

We had the same problem with Camporees until the Scouts simply vetoed them at the yearly planning meetings.

 

"Inclusiveness" is just an excuse for the Wood Badge CEO agenda to dumb Scouting down to the Cub Scout level. If you ignore race and get back to offering ALL boys the rugged adventure of the traditional Patrol-based BSA outdoor program, you won't have to brainstorm Den Leader ideas to "Make it Fun!"

 

Kudu

 

[Kahuna]

Re-invention, revision, revisitation, revival or whatever you want to call it, it ain't working like it's supposed to. If it was, 11-13 year old boys would be beating down the doors to get in. They aren't.

 

I'll be at the 2010 Jamboree and see for myself how it looks from there. From here, it don't look so good.

[shortridge]

BW wrote: AS an aside, I'm not sure who Shortridge was channeling but I believe he tuned into the wrong channel. The Charter organization does not own the program...they own the unit. The BSA owns the program and the charter organization agrees to follow it.

 

You're right - I used the word "program" twice in one sentence, which doesn't make sense. Thanks for pointing that out.

 

However, the BSA's own statement on the roles of COs hardly reflects ownership. Everyone could use a good editor...

 

They manage these units and control the program of activities to support the goals and objectives of the chartered organizations. (http://www.scouting.org/Media/FactSheets/02-507.aspx)

[Stosh]

Change is enevitable. When I was a kid, we had a big black and white console TV with 4 channels that went off at midnight and I got to be the channel changer. Today I have a 48 inch HD flat screen with well over 100 channels 24 hours a day and can record and play back any show I want on a hard drive.

 

>>> Change is not inevitable, it is what people choose to make happen. Just because I have a TV with 100 channels 24 horus a day doesn't mean anything worth watching is on any more than when I had 2 channels.

 

 

Mom used to cook every meal from fresh ingredients on a stove. Going to a restaurant was a couple of times a year treat. Now frozen foods, microwave meals, delivery, carry out and multiple trips to eateries per week is the norm.

 

>>> I live alone and yes, that is exactly how I choose to live my life. I make my food from fresh ingredients every meal. Occasionally, when I'm in a hurry I'll have a TV dinner followed by two Rolaids.

 

 

People used to dress in their finest clothes and go to a house of worship and show reverence toward their God. Today many churches have laser lights, smoke, rock band music and people attend in their shorts and t-shirts while drinking a Starbucks and watching their "worship leader" on a big screen at a satellite location.

 

>>> Suit and tie for church, still applies here.

 

The list is endless.

 

 

>>> The list is what people make of it.

 

Times change. Society changes. Organizations change to stay relevant to the times and society. If not, they become footnotes in history.

 

>>> And yes, it is inevitable that Scouting will become a footnote in history according to the definition prescribed. However, my boys DO enjoy the older arts, the emphasis on real leadership, self-determination, life skills, group dynamics and all those things that the program has dropped in the past 40 years to inevitably change to try and attract a crowd. Unfortunately the old crowd wasn't any more impressed than the new crowd. So now what do they do? Become like everyone else because they don't want to be a footnote in history?

 

Do I like it? No. But that is the fact of the matter whether I like it or not.

 

>>> If one doesn't like it, make different choices. No one is forcing anyone to drop the intentions of Victorian Scouting. The day will return, as it always does, when chivalry, honor, pride, and self-determination come back into vogue. Hopefully, Scouting will still be around when it does. Standing around complaining that kids are not what they were when we were young isn't really doing anything to fix it, and going along with the crowd isn't going to do much either.

 

Stosh

[Bob White]

Unless you have evidence that anything the BSA has said thus far indicates that that they are against chivalry, honor, pride, and self-dermination or that the charater and values of scouting is no longer or no longer will be a part of the BSA programs then it seems clear that you are just doing a lot of chest thumping over nothing.

 

This is just more "the sky is falling" mentality and it is unrelated to anything that the BSA has said or done so far.

 

Outside of only a few advancement requirements and a few uniform changes now and again, the BSA has changed very little in your lifetime other than in your imagination of what you think it used to be like.

 

Let's keep this in perspective. At this point in time based on the contents of the speeches and comments given by the CSO and others from the National office, what has actually been altered...NOTHING. What exactly MIGHT be altered? You haven't the foggiest.

 

So what specific change that hasn't been announced, and hasn't actually happened, that you have no knowledge of....actually has you concerned?

 

And why should the rest of the barnyard take it seriously?

[BadenP]

No the sky isn't falling, yet if it ever did as long as it came from BSA National BW would never notice or else be convinced that it is a message from on high because its from National.

 

The reality is that the Cub soccer program failed miserably as will any other attempt to attract Hispanic youth to scouting, why, because a bunch of paper pushing overweight WASP's at National haven't got a clue how to do it. The few token hispanic units in the southwest that BSA parades around in Scouting magazine are exceptions because they are underwritten by corporate sponsors, sshhh that is supposed to be a secret, and will probably fold in a year or two as the kids lose interest or the money dries up.

 

IMHO the scouting program will pretty much stay the same during Mazzuca's reign, he will continue to try these crazy ideas so he can claim he attempted to outreach to the Hispanic community but in the end it will fail. I agree with Kudu that the further scouting moves away from the outdoor emphasis the more we will see numbers fade away. Leadership and citizenship are good qualities to teach but without the outdoor program emphasis then what makes Boy Scouts unique dissappears. Maybe Mazzuca thinks the world of scouting can be made into a virtual reality game, like SIM, then he can appoint Bill Gates as Chief Volunteer Scouter. Oh what a world we live in, lol.

[NeilLup]

Just some random thoughts on this thread:

 

1) As I understand it, part of the problem with attracting Latino Scouts is that in many of the countries from which these Latino families come, there is Scouting but it is an upper-class activity with no particular outreach to the other classes in the society. So that when one talks "Scouting" to them, there is a cultural negative reaction. It may be an imperfect analogy, but it would be like trying to interest most American families in polo.

2) The #1 song in 1965 was "Ballad of the Green Berets." The Green Beret was the symbol of the Rangers in Vietnam and they were highly respected. An earlier comment from that group was that "President Kennedy gave us back the beret." Currently, as I understand matters, all Army soldiers wear a beret as their headgear. So the beret is rather positive in the military culture. In the uniform options in 1972, there were four headgear options: The overseas cap, the baseball cap, the smokey the bear hat and the beret. The unit could choose its headgear. Why is there such hostility toward the red beret when a) berets are honored and favored in the military and b) they weren't mandatory? I still have mine and rather liked it. I thought they looked pretty sharp.

3) Nobody took the outdoors out of Scouting in 1972. Outdoor activities became the strongly preferred option. Most units continued to do things just the way that they had. Outdoor training continued just the way that it had with the exception of Scoutmaster's Wood Badge which extremely few people attended anyway ( and, by the way, I did.) What changed was that there were other options to achieve the purposes of Scouting. Unless one believes that outdoor activities in patrol sized groups are the only legitimate embodiment of Scouting, which Rick does seem to believe, then saying that the outdoors was taken out is, in my opinion, a major misinterpretation. There may have been a very tiny minority of youth who earned Eagle without camping but I didn't know any such youth. Eagle Scouts were just as much campers as they were before.

4) It wasn't only Tiger Cubs. In the 1960s, the Cub Scout program was 3 years long. Wolf at age 8, Bear at age 9, Lion at age 10 with the last 3 months before one turned 11 earning the Arrow of Light. One could not become a Boy Scout until one was age 11. In the early 1970s, the Cub Scout program was 3 years long. Wolf at age 8, Bear at age 9, Webelos at age 10, then join Boy Scouts. It is now 5 years long. Tiger at age 6, Wolf at age 7, Bear at age 8, two years of Webelos at ages 9 and 10, then Boy Scouts. Before one joins a Troop, they can have been involved in Cub Scouting for half their life and almost all of their sentient life. Parents can be involved for 5 years in a Pack.

 

Happy New Year!

[SR540Beaver]

Jblake,

 

Well, you are correct. Life has always been about choices. I didnt say it wasnt. Im reminded of that every day when I see the homeless people on the sidewalks outside my office. But the fact that life is full of choices really has nothing to do with the inevitability of change. Things are going to change around us regardless of whether or not we chose to embrace those changes. Change provides additional choices. My point was that my mom didnt have a choice between cooking fresh ingredients over a stove and not doing so. That was the only option available at the time. Microwaves were not invented yet. Fast food joints were few and far between and an unacceptable expense with a stay at home mom and four children on a blue color pay check. Prepackaged foods were pretty basic. Today, the options have multiplied exponentially. Yes, you can still choose to cook and live like 1957.but you dont have to. Right or wrong, most people choose progress as it comes along. Im sure you could use a horse and buggy as transportation if you so chose, but Im betting you find modern transportation a better option for getting around.

 

No one here is making an argument against an outdoor scouting program or continuing the traditions and values of Scouting. Scouting began in Victorian England. It appealed to the boys of that era for a variety of reasons. But times have changed. The youth of today have literally hundreds of different options than those boys did. That isnt to say that some of the same activities or methods of doing things wouldnt attract boys today.....but it will attract far fewer. We can be a purist organization that still operates as Baden Powell did in 1909 and have a very small membership or we can adapt to the times and promote a program that interests boys in 2009 and spread the values, traditions and lessons of scouting. Sleeping in a canvas tent over sleeping in a nylon tent wont make an iota of difference in the character a boy develops thru Scouting.

 

Change is inevitable, but you have a choice of changing with the times or not. Me, I appreciated driving my heated truck to work in 20 minutes this morning as opposed to freezing in a buggy for an hour and a half after hitching up the horse. Call me crazy.

 

[Apache Bob]

I have enjoyed reading everyone's views. So here goes my two cents.

We forget that we have two different things or thoughts going on at the same time.

 

1. We have the people like me who work with the boys in a unit (Pack, Troop, or Crew). That is where the real Scouting program is.

 

2.. We have the people who make their living out of Scouting. It's their job. They are part of a business which needs to grow and attract more clients. So they will do anything to get more people interested in joining. Remember the the bottom line! It's the only thing!