re-inventing Boy Scouts

[2eagles]

Having taken both courses -- they both have good elements. No the North star ect.. was not in the old course. Now I will go out on a limb. Boy Scouting is an excellent program, however it teaches BEGINNING outdoor skills. When I was involved in mountain rescue - lots of our rescues were Scouts = actually Scoutmasters. Now since scouts are in the outdoors (well used to be) in droves - that is not that surprising. There is a false sense of adolesent know it all that comes from some scoutmasters and leaders ( i generally trust the boys more). Example GPS is great but it doesn't replace topo and map skills. In most of the basic GPS's they will point you say 500 yards in a direction however it doesn't tell you there is a canyon inbetween. Of course right now i am dealing with a troop who is acting as a glorified cub pack with the attitude of i am an adult i know more, i am bigger, your smaller. So i feel abit frustrated. Especially when our older boys 3 Eagles and several life scouts can run circles around them. These boys have taken there skills to the next level out of love of outdoors and understanding there is so much yet to learn. I hate seeing them crushed -- and ready to leave == although they have approached me with the venturing.

The old course did give more camping information - those scoutmasters who eat ect.. still missed the idea. If I or hub. are extended and invitation to eat with them we will but otherwise we are totally self sufficient = and frequently not camped right next door but with in hailing distance. We have always shown the basics, covered smart camp set up (ie. set you tent, dining, wood ready for fire then have fun)and leave no trace (which start with the forest service) then let them have at it. If they need help (ask) we are there if in danger we are there -- otherwise we are just camping too. Do they always follow what shown - nope - but they learn that setting up in complete dark in sort of the pits, starting cooking late means they will feel really hunger and have to wait - plus waiting on tents can mean getting wet if it decides to rain.

[Kahuna]

No, no North Star or tree identification in the old WB, but you had to learn a lot of camping skills in a week of living in the woods and quickly preparing and cleaning up 3 meals over a campfire.

[Narraticong]

Exactly my point. I understand North Star and tree identification are not the purpose of either new or old course. But if the instructor isn't well versed in at least basic Scout skills, then all he is doing is teaching Business Relations 101. It's always been my understanding that WB is the pinnacle of Scout training. WB instructors should know Scouting inside and out- the best and brightest.

[SR540Beaver]

Narraticong,

 

Do you expect people teaching Youth Protection to be well versed in scout skills? That isn't to say that people who teach either course don't need or have scout skills. It just isn't all that pertinent to the subject matter being taught. Knowing how to dig a cat hole or tie a bowline doesn't really apply to teaching about how people in groups (patrols) communicate. People teaching any course need to know the curriculum for that course. Having said that, the pool of people selected to teach these courses are Scouters.......most of who have scout skills from their years in the outdoors as unit leaders.

[Kudu]

Eagledad writes:

 

"Ive done a poll and I can say with confidence that probably only 5% of Wood Badge trained SMs have read the whole SM Handbook."

 

Count your blessings, Barry. The fact that 95% of Wood Badge trained Scoutmasters are functionally illiterate (can read but choose not to) is what makes Wood Badge such a powerful force in the destruction of Bill Hillcourt's Traditional BSA Patrol Method.

 

95% of the holders of the Wood Badge do not read about Scouting, so they defend Wood Badge from their EMOTIONS: Loyalty to the people they met at Wood Badge, for instance.

 

 

Eagledad writes:

 

"I dont know if that says more about the book or the program..."

 

If it is any consolation, the 5% literacy rate appears to have been true in 1972 as well. This is why nobody noticed that ALL OF THE FAKE Baden-Powell quotes in post-1972 official BSA publications were actually created (or collected) by Hillcourt and featured prominently in his BSA Scoutmaster handbooks. If ANY BSA millionaire or Wood Badge volunteer working at the Regional and National level had thumbed through the literature before writing the new materials for the "Leadership Development Method" invented in 1972, he or she would NOT have attributed to Baden-Powell all the stuff that "kind of sounded familiar."

 

Eagledad writes:

 

"Kudu is way off base, in many ways I guess, but if he were really serious about adults get misaligned with running a boy run troop, its more at the specific leaders training levels like SM Specific."

 

It is not just Wood Badge that has been dumbed-down to the Cub Scout level, Barry. The "Patrol Method" session of SM Specific training:

 

1) NEVER mentions the Patrol Method (except for the FAKE Baden-Powell quote at the beginning).

2) NEVER mentions a "Patrol" without asserting that a Patrol is NO DIFFERENT from a "troop" or any other "group."

3) NEVER mentions a Patrol Leader.

 

The Patrol Method session is NOT about the Patrol Method.

 

It even includes one memorable example of the Patrol Method in which an adult tells random Scouts when to put out the campfire. What team-building expert do you suppose wrote the Patrol Method session of Scoutmaster specific training, Barry? A Wood Badge course director working at the Regional or National level maybe? Even the most "adult-directed leadership style" Webelos 3 Troop in the world can work through a Patrol Leader, but the Patrol Method session NEVER MENTIONS A PATROL LEADER, does it?

 

Be thankful that the Wood Badge functional illiteracy rate is 95%, or someone would notice.

 

Eagledad writes:

 

"I do have one question for Kudu. His behavior in the forum to me is so counter to scout like behavior that I wonder if this isn't on purpose."

 

All personal attacks include some form of projection. Maybe you should worry less about branding me.

 

Eagledad writes:

 

"What I want to know Kudu is: are you acheiving your goal in this forum?"

 

Yes, thank you. The way that 2eagles and Narraticong replied to me is far more thought-provoking than the moralizing of the three Wood Badge promoters who use Scout Law to defend bad training.

 

Kudu

 

[shortridge]

Seems like this thread should have split seven different ways already.

 

Narraticong wrote: "It's always been my understanding that WB is the pinnacle of Scout training."

 

That's always been my understanding as well. As a non-WB'er who came up through Scouting during the time of the "old" program, I always thought Wood Badge was the top-of-the-line program that taught adults everything they needed to know. I was always encouraged to attend Wood Badge once I became an adult leader. Now, having read the pros and cons on this forum, I'm not so sure it'd be all that helpful.

[Eagle92]

I have to agree with Short. I first heard of WB when I did the Brownsea 22 training. All of the adults either completed WB or were working their tickets. Really impressed me. As An adult I've put off WB because of scheduling conflicts, and finances. Then WB21C came out. I first heard that changes were int he air back in 95 when Gilwell Park was testing their new course. I didn't like the sound of it as it took the outing out of Scouting. Then it occurred over here. While some WBers may think the new course is great, i do know a few who do not, and these folks are respected WB staffers. Will I take WB, at some point, becaus epart of me still sees those beads as the epitome of scout leader training. But honestly I'm more interested in Powderhorn.

[SSScout]

Looking back, I went thru WB (which is better? Took...? Attended?...Earned?...) because

1) It was recommended to me by other Scouters.

2) It was promoted by Council literature as the "next step" in training, as the "graduate school" for Scouters,

3) I wanted a new challenge and some ego stroking recognition.

4) I was told it would look good on my resume (both Scout and personal),

5) My union would pay for it,

6) It sounded like fun,

7) I like an excuse to go camping with like minded folks,

 

I am glad I took the WB because:

1) It was fun,

2) I did learn some things I didn't realize/know (yeah, I could catalog them if I tried),

3) It reinforced some organizational things I already knew from work and life experience,

4) It EMPOWERED me to go out and do some things I otherwise might not have done (ticket items not withstanding),

5) It leads to other conversations about Scouting, both with Scouty folks and others,

6) It was an excellent excuse to go camping.

 

Thinking back, WB lacked:

1) I can't say I learned anything new about woodsy skills. We were frankly told that our WB was not for that purpose. It was expected that our woodsy skills were obtained elsewhere.

2) We practiced Patrol camping, and rotated the duties of Patrol Leader, APL, Scribe, cook, etc. among our Patrol. If we were "instructed" in Patrol method, it was by example of the Staff, not by overt teaching.

3) My greatest dissapointment came when I was told that my first ideas for "tickets" could not be approved. My proposals centered around Cub Scouts and the CSDC. At the time, I was an ASM and registered as such. But, since I was not a Cub leader, I could not do Cub things. So be it. Therefore, between sessions, I became a Unit Commissioner, took the training and became a UC. Now, I could "cross the line" and do Cub things and Boy things. And so I now do UC stuff. So my initial disappoinment actually gained me greater access to the greater world of Scouting. Ultimately, my tickets included both Cub stuff and Boy stuff.

4)The follow up and (?) encouragement could have been better, more active perhaps. My questions and inqueries were all addressed and answered, however.

 

I will get my beads at the Troops CoH next month.

[OldGreyEagle]

Can you substantiate your claim "95% of the holders of the Wood Badge do not read about Scouting" or is that like the supposition that you can't Criticize Wood Badge on this site?

 

I know, 95% of all statistics are made up, 50% of the time

[Eagledad]

That was a personal poll I took for about three years in my Scoutmaster Specific Course and two Wood Badge courses.

 

I'm one of those kinds of people that when I see a trend that needs to change, I try something new. I was catching a lot of heat from District for requiring all the SM Specific participants bring a SM Handbook. So I started polling with the intention of proving how much difference using the Hand book made. Well I was shocked by the numbers. I couldnt prove it made any difference because nobody was reading it. I will say the 5% who did read the whole handbook were typically very good leaders and they also read a lot of other material from sources like Baden Powell. They were also more educated and had professional jobs.

 

So, I made a change. I quit requiring all my Scoutmaster Specific participants bring a SM Handbook except the Scoutmasters and Committee Chairs. I only required them to make sure they had one, I didnt care if they read it. Instead, I personally give each SM in my course a copy of the SPL Handbook, and Patrol Leaders Handbook and had them promise me that they would read them that night.

 

Truth of the matter is the SM Handbook doesnt give a new Scoutmasters all that much than the Scout Handbooks to get a program rolling. And most adults can read both PL and SPL Handbook inside an hour. I encouraged every participant except committee members get a copy of the SPL and PL Handbooks. At around $ 8.00 each, I could only afford to give Scoutmasters free copies. My wife would go through the roof if she knew how much I spent during those years. Lets keep that between us.

 

I started then and have since taught that if the adults guided the program using the SPL and PL handbook along side the scouts using those handbooks, they couldnt go wrong. I dont teach now, but I still forward that suggestion when I can, like here on the forum. 300 feet coming from someone who sounds angry at the world will go nowhere, but reading about patrol method along side a scout clears the fog.

 

So is that a scientific study? Well I am an engineer, a bit of a scientist I guess. So yes, that was a scientific study you can bet your marbles on.

 

Have a great day and good luck to those on Trappers Rendezvous in Kansas.

 

Barry

 

[Kudu]

OldGreyEagle writes:

 

Can you substantiate your claim "95% of the holders of the Wood Badge do not read about Scouting"

 

In the preceding sentences I defined Wood Badge "functional illiteracy" as not having read the Scoutmaster Handbook. The point is that holders of the Wood Badge who do not at a bare minimum even read the skimpy 179 page Scoutmaster Handbook (let alone Bill Hillcourt's 1,166 page Handbook for Scoutmasters, the most comprehensive Scouter "how-to" book ever written -> a good alternative to Wood Badge) will react to criticisms of Wood Badge with their EMOTIONS: "When I sing 'Back to Gilwell' I KNOW IN MY HEART that Wood Badge has always been about corporate team-building theory."

 

OldGreyEagle writes:

 

or is that like the supposition that you can't Criticize Wood Badge on this site?

 

That was a warning to 2eagles that if she continues to question the new business manager Wood Badge, then she will be subject to personal attacks like: "I do know that continually harassing those of us who did not have the opportunity to take the old course is not Helpful, Friendly, Courteous or Kind." You do not seem to have picked up on my comparison of it to a prohibition against unauthorized use of a time machine.

 

I have always said that 99% of all of the BSA's shortcomings would eventually be corrected if we simply required that all Boy Scout Patrols be separated by Baden-Powell's minimum of 100 yards, but that the remaining 1% are insolvable, due to poor reading comprehension

 

Eagledad writes:

 

"300 feet coming from someone who sounds angry at the world will go nowhere"

 

Personal attacks are always an indication of some form of projection. I thought you were over your anger issues, Barry.

 

Kudu

 

[Eagledad]

Observations are not personal attacks and humility is the greatest trait that a boy can witness from his mentor.

 

Barry

[Kudu]

"Observations are not personal attacks"

 

Sure they are. If you can not discuss Scouting topics like Baden-Powell's 100 yard distance between Patrols, then discredit the idea by attempting to discredit the person.

 

"and humility is the greatest trait that a boy can witness from his mentor."

 

and non sequiturs the most funny.

 

[Eagledad]

>>Sure they are. If you can not discuss Scouting topics like Baden-Powell's 100 yard distance between Patrols, then discredit the idea by attempting to discredit the person.>I suspect that male obesity is THE primary force supporting the "re-invention of Boy Scouts."

[BrentAllen]

"If it is any consolation, the 5% literacy rate appears to have been true in 1972 as well. This is why nobody noticed that ALL OF THE FAKE Baden-Powell quotes in post-1972 official BSA publications were actually created (or collected) by Hillcourt and featured prominently in his BSA Scoutmaster handbooks. If ANY BSA millionaire or Wood Badge volunteer working at the Regional and National level had thumbed through the literature before writing the new materials for the "Leadership Development Method" invented in 1972, he or she would NOT have attributed to Baden-Powell all the stuff that "kind of sounded familiar." "

 

There is one thing I can't figure out about all these "fake" quotes. Bill Hillcourt was around until 1992 - if these quotes were such a problem, why didn't he correct them? I think he would have the most reason to be upset, if what you say is true. I am pretty certain he would have been able to make any corrections, had he wanted to.

 

The backpacking and overnighter instruction at WB is given by the PL, in the Patrol meeting - just like in real life. If the PL needs help, the TG will assist before the meeting.