re-inventing Boy Scouts

[NeilLup]

Hello emb,

 

I believe that, per the National reorganization in October, Sea Scouting is no longer part of Venturing but is a separate program.

[OldGreyEagle]

And yet Venturing, as part of the BSA still has the same mission and vision. Whehter a Crew is Sports, Arts and Hobbies, Relgious Life, Sea Scouting or Outdoors they have the same vision and mission. I guess there are those think those who support the various aspects of Venturing are just trampling on B-P's grave. But I disagree

 

Wood Craft skills are very important, and fun as well, but that doesnt mean we kick to the curb those who have no interest or have families who have no interest in Wood Craft skills or the outdoors

[SR540Beaver]

OGE, quit being a heretic!

 

Kudu, I don't disagree with you about the ease of enticing and recruiting 6th graders. Been there, done that. I ran the new scout program in our troop of 60 for the last several years and still assist the gentleman I trained and turned the program over to. We take in 15 to 25 new scouts any given year. That is the easy part. Retaining that number until their 18th birthday is the challenge.....and we have an excellent traditional boy led program that includes annual high adventure trips. We have one boy who is 15 and a Life scout. I fully expect him to make Eagle. His little brother just finished his first year in our troop. I believe he is 2nd Class closing in on 1st Class. We rechatered last week. The older brother re-upped as usual. The younger brother flat refused and told his parents he has no interest. Two kids from the same family that is very supportive of scouting. They even have two Cubs with one of them crossing over in February. One brother loves it, one doesn't. I suppose his parents could force him, but what is the point if he doesn't want to be there. We hope he decides to come back and we will stay in touch with him.

 

I've seen many 6th graders come into the program wide eyed and excited only to decide by 7th grade that they are not as excited as they once were. It isn't due to lack of program. As I said, we provide a traditional boy led program. Our boys decide annually where they want to go and what they want to do there. Boys step to the plate to volunteer to be the overall planner for individual outings and handle all the arrangements. Each patrol obviously plans their own menus and duty rosters. The PLC functions largely outside of any adult influnece. We climb and rappel, mountain bike, fish, orienteer, etc. on our outings. In December, we had a shotgun and rifle shooting campout. In February, we are doing a wilderness surrvival outing.

 

Your hand wringing over your perceived demise of scouting is premature. It is alive and well in units like mine across the nation. Do we cater to some of the helicopter parents? Kind of. They are welcome to come on campouts as long as they stay out of the patrols way. It gives them an opportunity to see us in action and realize that little 10 year old Timmy isn't going to go hungry and that we will actually bring him home alive. We find that after one or two campouts, the vast majority of parents relax and let the boys and registered leaders do their thing. For those that enjoy camping, they continue to come and serve as much needed transportation. If having a flush toilet and hot shower at the local scout property is going to get a single mom over the hump and help keep Timmy in long term, that is a good thing. He'll learn how to dig a cat hole when he goes on one of our backpacking treks down the road.

 

Scouting is alive and well. By adapting to the changes in society, it will contine to live. Boys will get out in the outdoors and grow into men of character. I think BP would be pleased.

[SR540Beaver]

I might add for effect that our traditional boy led troop has 12 WB trained adults, 5 of which have staffed WB.

[emb021]

"I believe that, per the National reorganization in October, Sea Scouting is no longer part of Venturing but is a separate program."

 

Sea Scouting is STILL part of Venturing. It's not a separate program on its own. Go to the National website. You see only Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts, and Venturing listed. Sea Scouts you will find within the Venturing area.

 

The idea that Sea Scouts are no longer part of Venturing is a misunderstanding due to the national re-org.

 

National got rid of all the Program Divisions, then re-did the related national committees of volunteers. The Sea Scout committee is now the "Sea Scout Support Committee" under the "outdoor adventures committee". The members of the National Venturing Committee have been pulled into another committee, but don't know which.

 

 

[BadenP]

Have any of you read the article on Hispanic scouting at the National BSA site? They quote Rick Cronk,former BSA president as saying, "We are either going to have to find a way to make scouting appeal to hispanic youth or we are going to go out of business."

 

So it seems according to the article National recognizes the serious dilema of dropping membership among white middle class kids which the article states makes up the vast majority of the membership. Instead of finding ways to attract these kids back to scouting they instead are creating a new culturally based program aimed just at hispanic youth. So my question is are the ideals and programs of scouting not cross culturally appealing and relevant? Apparently not according to this article. With the comments Cronk and Mazzuca are making you would think scouting in the US is a sinking ship and National is trying desperately to keep it afloat using bandaids to seal the holes. If this isn't reinventing scouting I don't know what is.

[Kudu]

OldGreyEagle writes:

 

"B-P talks about Scouting as being a School of Charactor... In the three minute or so speech he mentions camping once."

 

I don't know the Latin term for this fallacy, but I call it "Wood Badge Logic" because it is what Wood Badge does so very well.

 

In essence you have reverse-engineered Baden-Powell's description of the BENEFITS of his game of camping and public service to justify any "delivery system" that merely mentions one of these benefits, even if it is what Baden-Powell so clearly defined as the very opposite of Scouting: Parlour Scouting.

 

The same Wood Badge Logic is used to reverse-engineer the BENEFITS we call the "Aims of Scouting" to mean ANYTHING that mentions Character, like luring boys indoors to sit in front of computer screens "side by side with adults of character."

 

The same Wood Badge Logic is also used to justify luring boys indoors to please their parents by sitting in a classroom to learn Citizenship in indoor Citizenship Merit Badge classes. But remember, you cannot give them character through ordinary classroom methods. You have to use other means. 66% of the boys are eager to join in a jolly game of fellowship, with its healthy camp life and handy pioneer training.

 

OldGreyEagle writes:

 

"If he was around today, I am sure he would want to still produce men of Charactor who were healthy (Physcially fit) and good citizens, but I don't know as he would use the present delivery system."

 

Um, the BSA settled on indoor things like school pull-ups, without which you can't get past Tenderfoot.

 

"Delivery system"? You use the same terminology to kill Scouting as millionaire tobacco executives use to kill with cigarettes.

 

Baden-Powell could never have anticipated that adults would work so very hard to remove camping from his game of camping and public service.

 

Unfortunately, Green Bar Bill DID live long enough to see this horror, which millionaire executives began less than two months after his retirement!

 

I DO know what Baden-Powell would do if he was alive today! He would use the word "camping" in every sentence to avoid having the BENEFITS of the game of camping quoted out of the context of the GAME OF CAMPING

 

OldGreyEagle writes:

 

"So before we talk to 60 boys and end up with 25% and consider that a fine days recruiting, what would B-P think of us throwing away the other 45 because they or their family do not fit the mold?"

 

This is another fallacy that defines Wood Badge Logic.

 

45 of the 60 boys WANT to join Scouting when I define it as the outdoor adventure "delivery system" that Wood Badge teaches YOU is expendable.

 

Those 45 boys do NOT include the boys in the audience who are ALREADY in Scouting (presumably because Cub Scouts was not boring enough to drive them away).

 

So let us examine your logic, OldGreyEagle! If you do not consider 25% to be "a fine day's recruiting," exactly what percentage does YOUR vision aim for?

 

If dumbing Scouting down to the Cub Scout level was working ONLY AS WELL as my Baden-Powell approach (15 boys), then that would mean that ALL of the remaining 15 boys who did not sign up are ALREADY IN SCOUTING!

 

Right?

 

So that would mean that 100% of all sixth-grade boys EITHER want Baden-Powell's brand of rugged outdoor Scouting (66.6%), OR (best case scenario) are perfectly happy with scissors and paste or sitting in Citizenship Merit Badge classrooms side by side with adults of character (33.3%).

 

According to Wood Badge Logic, if we could only redouble our efforts to figure out what their MOMMIES want Boy Scouts to be, then more of them would say "yes" (btw, 100% of the parents on my sign up sheets who say "no" are mothers).

 

If dumbing down Boy Scouts was the answer to making Boy Scouting more attractive to mommies, then they would have forced their sons to stay in Cub Scouts, which is second only to ballet classes in delivering what 66% of boys dread more than death

 

My theory is that this talk of "reinventing Boy Scouts" is NOT aimed at improving the recruiting rate OR retention rate. It is all about making the Cub Scout parents who do cross over with their sons more comfortable by making Boy Scouts more like Cub Scouts.

 

Pretending that the "Mission" of Scouting is to teach boys how to make "ethical choices" is to pull a bait and switch with the REAL MISSION of the BSA as MANDATED in the BSA's Congressional Charter: "to promote ... the ability of boys to do things for themselves and others, to train them in scoutcraft ... using the methods that were in common use by boy scouts on June 15, 1916."

 

Allowing the BSA to abuse this, the legal mandate that defines their monopoly, is like allowing the Water Department to substitute "making ethical choices" for the 100 year-old "delivery system" of pipes because when the utility's founder listed the benefits of plumbing, he only mentioned "water" once.

 

Kudu

 

 

[OldGreyEagle]

Well, like I said, without any insults, what are you talking about?

[Kudu]

OldGreyEagle writes:

 

"Well, like I said [personal attack deleted] what are you talking about?"

 

In a nutshell, the only "re-invention" Boy Scouts needs is to get back to its pre-1972 Traditional roots:

 

1) When Scouting is presented the way Baden-Powell did 100 years ago, 66% of sixth-grade boys sign up (in front of their peers) to be Boy Scouts.

 

2) That 66% does NOT include the boys who do not sign up because they ALREADY are Boy Scouts! Now YOU tell ME what market-share that adds up to.

 

3) When Boy Scouting is presented the way Baden-Powell did 100 years ago Latin boys are just as likely to sign up as whites, and they are MORE likely than whites to recruit their brothers and cousins.

 

Kudu

[OldGreyEagle]

I choose to stand by what I have said

[2eagles]

WHOA kudu on the mommies. I am a mommy -- though I do not know anyone who use that particular term -- most of the Scouts call me It. My experience (specifically) during the last 6 years has been the wimpy macho men. "Trained" Men I would not let take a group into any unstructured setting. I would prefer the boys be on their own. I have found it isn't just mommies but also daddies who are city born and bred who freak when baby will have to cook and sleep outside. The challange is now having to educate parents along with scouts. The outdoors is foreign to many -- this always amazes but it is true.

[Kudu]

2eagles writes:

 

"WHOA kudu on the mommies."

 

That was the term our Scouts used when they organized a 100% boycott of ALL future campouts that would include "anybody's mommy."

 

However, they greatly admired the outdoor women who taught them technical climbing, white water canoeing, winter backpacking, etc.

 

2eagles writes:

 

"My experience (specifically) during the last 6 years has been the wimpy macho men. "Trained" Men I would not let take a group into any unstructured setting."

 

Yeah, I agree: Welcome to the new business manager Wood Badge!

 

I suspect that male obesity is THE primary force supporting the "re-invention of Boy Scouts."

 

Kudu

 

[2eagles]

Kudu I personally prefer the old course (wasn't able to finish my ticket due to move) -- More so now because the team building is received in the business end by most adults anyway. I was very disappointed in the new course -- in fact after the new course my husband went and taught the same darn thing for his company. Now we need the adults to practice camping and outdoor skills even more. I haven't met an old course woodbadger that doesn't get it -- but I have met several from the new course (including those on staff) who haven't got a clue

[OldGreyEagle]

I kinda like the Wood Badge Course the way it is. I can't compare it with the old course because it wasn't available to me. I don't know why Wood Badge was changed, it was changed before I had a chance to take it. Perhaps one of the reasons it was changed was because of the good ol' boy network that seemed to develop, being invited, having to know the right people to get into the select group. Maybe BSA for all the knocks about not being inclusive enough wanted to have a singular experience for all, I don't know. I do know that continually harrassing those of us who did not have the opportunity to take the old course is not Helpful, Friendly, Courteous or Kind.

 

Boy Scouts will have to change, then again when you think about it, it always has

[Narraticong]

Hey Kudu! You'll have to look a long way to find a "bigger" supporter of traditional Scouting. I'm a Scoutmaster and I'm without a doubt a fat guy. And I want nothing to do with reinventing Scouts. I go on every hike and campout. When I talk to younger boys I often get down on my knees to be face to face, rather than tower over them. Growing up less than a mile from National Heaadquarters in the 60's and 70's, I had the honor of meeting Green Bar Bill and having him sit in on Patrol meetings.

 

I don't believe obesity has a thing to do with it. We need to look toward the feel good, I'm OK, You're OK, liberal lifestyle of today for the answer. Folks today believe that challenging our children is a bad idea. Instead we falsely inflate their egos by lowering standards.

 

Yes, I have to battle the bulge, but that has nothing to do with my Scouting beliefs.