re-inventing Boy Scouts

[Stosh]

Well, you are correct. Life has always been about choices. I didnt say it wasnt. Im reminded of that every day when I see the homeless people on the sidewalks outside my office. But the fact that life is full of choices really has nothing to do with the inevitability of change.

 

>>> As I commented before change is neither good nor bad, it's just different. However, what people choose to do with that change is open to judgement.

 

Things are going to change around us regardless of whether or not we chose to embrace those changes. Change provides additional choices. My point was that my mom didnt have a choice between cooking fresh ingredients over a stove and not doing so. That was the only option available at the time. Microwaves were not invented yet. Fast food joints were few and far between and an unacceptable expense with a stay at home mom and four children on a blue color pay check. Prepackaged foods were pretty basic. Today, the options have multiplied exponentially. Yes, you can still choose to cook and live like 1957.but you dont have to. Right or wrong, most people choose progress as it comes along. Im sure you could use a horse and buggy as transportation if you so chose, but Im betting you find modern transportation a better option for getting around.

 

>>> And unless the boys learn to cook as they did back in 1957, they aren't going to be able to function in a traditional Boy Scout program. As far as I can tell there are no backpacking microwaves and fast food joints aren't very popular in the Boundary Waters. Yes the world has changed and while modern transportation is great, I still get many compliments on my 1974 Nova I continue to drive. Does driving to work in a 2008 Kia any different than a 1974 Nova? I can't tell.

 

>>> Science has also indicated that much of the processed foods we have chosen to accept as the norm, lead to childhood obesity and eventual diabetes. So I'm under the impression that all change, no matter how convenient, isn't always a good thing.

 

>>> Yes, carrying a nylon tent is better than a canvas one, but sleeping out under the stars beats them both. The last time I camped out it was with a single wool blanket with a rubberized ground cloth. Worked just fine. It's a bummer when it rains because you have to roll everything over to get the ground cloth on top.

 

No one here is making an argument against an outdoor scouting program or continuing the traditions and values of Scouting. Scouting began in Victorian England. It appealed to the boys of that era for a variety of reasons. But times have changed. The youth of today have literally hundreds of different options than those boys did. That isnt to say that some of the same activities or methods of doing things wouldnt attract boys today.....but it will attract far fewer. We can be a purist organization that still operates as Baden Powell did in 1909 and have a very small membership or we can adapt to the times and promote a program that interests boys in 2009 and spread the values, traditions and lessons of scouting. Sleeping in a canvas tent over sleeping in a nylon tent wont make an iota of difference in the character a boy develops thru Scouting.

 

>>> But when a boy learns the true basics, not microwave basics of cooking they can cook on a fire, on the stove or in a microwave. Kids today haven't the foggiest idea how to heat up left-overs on a stove. They are self-sufficient as long as there's an outlet somewhere.

 

Change is inevitable, but you have a choice of changing with the times or not. Me, I appreciated driving my heated truck to work in 20 minutes this morning as opposed to freezing in a buggy for an hour and a half after hitching up the horse. Call me crazy.

 

>>> I hate horses so I don't have a buggy, but when a major snow storm hits, I can still get to the grocery store on my cross-country skis or snowshoes which I have in my garage.

 

>>> Back when the Y2K scare hit this country, everyone was in a panic over everything shutting down. When Asked what I would do I simply said, start a fire in the back yard, make dinner and think about it over a cup of hot coffee.

 

>>> Self-sufficiency and the added dynamics of leadership of leading a group in group-sufficiency is not a skill being brought to the forefront in today's BSA program, as it has in the past. Madison Avenue slick isn't going to put leaders out there who can take care of themselves let alone someone else like family, friends or Scout Troops.

 

>>> Yes, change in inevitable, but choosing to change when it isn't necessary isn't always the best plan.

 

Stosh

[SR540Beaver]

I'd like to see a show of hands here of the SM's and ASM's who currently don't teach traditional outdoor skills and self-suffiency as part of their unit program.

 

Go ahead, I'll wait patiently for you to raise your hands. When you do, please tell us what you have replaced those elements of your program with, whether it be staying at the Holidome or PS3 gaming or microwave cooking. Don't be embarrased. Anyone?

[Eagledad]

>>We can be a purist organization that still operates as Baden Powell did in 1909 and have a very small membership or we can adapt to the times and promote a program that interests boys in 2009 and spread the values, traditions and lessons of scouting.

[Hal_Crawford]

Barry:

I think I was the first to use the word racist in this thread so I will point out that it was with regard to the possibility of "unscoutlike" incidents involving Latino scouts. Not all Latinos are illegal immigrants. Not all Latinos are even immigrants and many are US citizens. Lumping all Latinos together, illegals, legal residents and US citizens (whether through birth or naturalization) is one of the causes of racism against the hispanic community. It is the very sort of thing that the BSA will have to deal with when Latino and other scouts are mixed together at camporees or summer camps.

 

I was not directing the term racist toward anyone on this forum so I am sorry if you took offense. I feel that BSA faces a choice of either not reaching out to Latino communities for fear of "unscoutlike incidents" or to face the issue head-on and take a stand that the BSA will view such behavior as unacceptable from scouts or scouters.

[Eagledad]

>>I was not directing the term racist toward anyone on this forum so I am sorry if you took offense. I feel that BSA faces a choice of either not reaching out to Latino communities for fear of "unscoutlike incidents" or to face the issue head-on and take a stand that the BSA will view such behavior as unacceptable from scouts or scouters.

[NJCubScouter]

I think Neil's post is very helpful because it answers a question that a number of us have been wondering about, which is, if Scouting exists in Latin American countries now, why don't immigrant families get involved here in greater numbers? If indeed it is more of an "upper class" thing in those countries, that would explain it, because logic would suggest that most immigrants are not in the "upper class". (Although that may be somewhat less true for immigration from some of the Asian countries, where if not "upper class" many immigrants are at least of the "professional class.") I have sort of puzzled over why more of the local Hispanic boys don't seem to get involved in Scouting, when I think most units would be happy to deal with language issues and whatever other hurdles may exist, to get more boys involved. I guess part of the problem is that the "white folks" who make up a unit's leadership (that would include me) don't necessarily understand what the hurdles are. If the BSA's new program includes some "education" (for both "sides") and other means of "breaking down barriers", I think that would be a good thing. (Based on some of the posts, I understand some people might have an issue with part of what I'm saying, but so be it. I've been accused of being "liberal" and "PC" before, I can handle it.)

 

I also agree with Neil about the changes made in the early 70's (while I was a Boy Scout.) They certainly tried to do too much too fast and some of it was a bit misguided, but it wasn't anywhere near the disaster that many people have portrayed. My troop did camping and hiking and high/medium adventure to the same degree as before, and in fact more, because right around the same time we had a new Scoutmaster who gave it more emphasis. (I called him Dad.) I went to Philmont and the expeditions were fully booked, just as they are today. I do not know how many units or Scouts took advantage of the option to do Scouting without outdoor activities, but I never noticed a change in the actual program. So, there were some things in the "new" (1972-ish) handbook that seemed a little odd, and signaling, tracking etc. didn't need to be wiped out entirely, but I don't think it fundamentally changed how Scouting was actually practiced for the vast majority of people. And I think some of the changes were positive, for example the greater emphasis on environmental awareness, and it also wasn't a bad idea to have some faces in the handbook that weren't white. (There I go again.)

 

As for the red berets, again I agree with Neil. My father liked to point out that the trend in BSA headwear basically followed the trends in the military, from the Smokey-the-Bear hats of the early 20th century to the "flat hats" of WW2, to the berets of the 60's and then the baseball caps of more recent times. Since they didn't want to copy the military directly, the beret was red instead of green (although as part of my inherited collection of Scouting memorabilia, I do have a green beret of Canadian Scouting that someone gave my father), and some units chose it, though many didn't. A few years ago my son's troop shared a summer campsite with a troop that all wore red berets, and I thought it looked cool. I think if a troop has chosen a particular hat and the kids wear it proudly and don't act like they're ashamed of it, it will look fine. (When the option came up in the early 70's, my troop chose the Smokey hat ("campaign hat"?) but I think after 4 or 5 years (after my time) the novelty wore off and they switched to the baseball cap.)

 

If you want to know what really caused Scouting's numbers to decrease starting in the early 70's, I think you have to begin with the declining birth rate with the end of the "baby boom." I don't have a link handy, but I have seen the statistics and I think the birth rate since the 80's has been something like 60 to 70 percent of what it was in the late 50's (when I was born.) While the population of the U.S. has steadily increased, I'm pretty sure the annual number of births has never gotten back to the level of the late 50's and it has usually been way below that. I think the availability of a wider variety of activities has probably been a factor, and the "un-coolness" aspect has been a factor, but probably not as much as sheer demographics. In that sense, the BSA is obviously correct that it needs to attract more members of "under-represented" ethnic groups that are becoming an ever-greater percentage of the population.

 

I also agree regarding the Cub Scout program. I think a lot of kids and parents do feel that they have had enough of Scouting by the time they join a Boy Scout troop. And, although I know the BSA has been trying to make the transition as seamless as possible, the fact that they are different units and that there may not be a troop at the same location as the pack, seems to be a barrier for some people. Even after they join a troop, some of the kids decide not to continue past a few months. I think some of the parents don't really encourage the boys to continue because they are not comfortable with the sudden change from adult-run to boy-run (or boy-led, whichever you prefer.) But then again, many do continue. I'm not sure what the BSA can do that they haven't already done; it would be counterproductive to discontinue the Tiger program at this point and I don't expect it to happen. I am just happy that they have resisted the temptation to have a kindergarten program (at least so far.)

 

And with all that, my son's troop is in the same general size range (30-40 active) as my troop was in the 70's. (If I can say "my troop", referring to the one I was in as a boy, since nobody will think I am saying I owned it.) So, who knows?

[Hal_Crawford]

Some of these posts have piqued my curiosity regarding the level of scouting in South and Central America. I found this in Wikipedia regarding scouting in the Americas: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WOSM-Interamerican_Region

 

Scouting does exist in most of the countries but the organizations are small and in many cases coeducational. This seems to confirm that scouting is an upper class institution in many of these countries. It appears Argentina, Brazil (portuguese speaking and culturally different from the Spanish speaking countries) and Mexico have the largest organizations. While we have a small Argentinean community, neither Brazil nor Mexico is heavily represented in the immigrant community in my area.

 

The lack of a wide-spread scouting tradition in most Spanish speaking countries contributes to the challenge of attracting Hispanic youth to scouting but should not preclude success.

 

Hal

 

 

[Kudu]

Bob White writes:

 

This is where comparing everything to B-Ps original program and original intent is so flawed. The original program was written for teenagers in Victorian England."

 

SR540Beaver writes:

 

"Scouting began in Victorian England. It appealed to the boys of that era for a variety of reasons. But times have changed."

 

The original program was written to get teenagers OUT of Victorian parlors after the chestnut-hued Boers (Dutch for "farmers") handed the pasty indoor English boys so many humiliating defeats in the Boer War.

 

Camping was already "old fashioned" in Victorian England. Scouting made a game out of it.

 

Real Scouting has ALWAYS been an outdoor cure for the negative effects of modernization. Both the industrial revolution and the current technological revolution create market forces that profit from moving boys indoors. And now American Scouting wants to follow the money.

 

Wood Badge (the bridge between corporate interests and volunteer training) promotes the idea that Scouting is all about abstract things like the "Aims of Scouting" or the "Mission Statement," so it is a quick bait and switch to declare that camping is "old fashioned" and that "values" can be just as easily taught to teenagers indoors or on a small Cub Scout campsite "sitting side by side with adults of character."

 

"Even Baden-Powell changed his vision of scouting during his life time, perhaps its time others did as well."

 

Baden-Powell's outdoor program became more challenging, not less. He required constant retesting and a major backwoods expedition for every award in Scouting.

 

"When the BSA changed to allow women as Scoutmasters some leaders quit, others took their place. When the uniform changed some leaders quit, others took their place. When the inner city handbook came out some leaders quit, others took their place. If the changes that develop from this new marketing strategy are not to your liking no one will make you be a scout leader...others will take your place."

 

This is what happens when Congress picks corporate winners. If you are protected from market forces, then why NOT hire a dress designer to impose his fashion statement on uniforms for adolescent boys? Why NOT take the outing out of Scouting? Why NOT play soccer instead of camping?

 

The Congressional Charter protects the BSA from a healthy free market so that the BSA never has to play to its own base. As Bob White points out with a finger in your eye, where else are you going to go?

 

Without the Charter, competing associations that take pride in being "old fashioned" would be free to provide Americans with Traditional Scouting based on Baden-Powell's outdoor program.

 

BUT, in return for the nanny-state's protection, the BSA agreed to the TERMS of this Congressional Charter which mandate that the PURPOSE of this artificial protected monopoly is to build "the ability of boys to do things for themselves and others, to train them in scoutcraft...using the methods that were in common use by boy scouts on June 15, 1916."

 

It is only the fancy theories that shift the "purpose" of Scouting away from the legal mandate to be "old fashioned" (1916-style) that encourage holders of the Wood Badge to heap scorn on Baden-Powell.

 

In this new era of public backlash against corporate CEOs who violate the public trust, who hold the plain meaning of federal law in contempt, and who use fancy Mission Statements and obscure business theories to substitute "values" for a tangible product of TRUE value, we should all write to Congress and ask them to free us from those old-fashioned Victorian "methods that were in common use by boy scouts on June 15, 1916."

 

I'm sure that the new Congress would let us swap corporate business theory and "values" for old-fashioned Patrol camping, since that is what we have been doing since 1972 anyways.

 

Certainly we can negotiate a better deal now than we could back in 1916!

 

If millionaire CEOs and Wood Badge experts really believe that outdoor Patrols are "old fashioned" and "Victorian," let's all put pen to paper and free our fearless leaders from the nanny state!

 

Little League gets along fine without a monopoly on the word "baseball." I'm sure that millionaire Scouting executives and their Wood Badge experts could combine their state-of-the-art "contemporary leadership concepts utilized in the corporate world and leading government organizations" with their awesome insight into "what modern boys really want" to compete in a free market without that old-fashioned Congressional Charter.

 

Nothing focuses the mind like competition!

 

Kudu

 

[Bob White]

Kudu,

You are pedaling absolute tripe and prattle. There is not an ounc of fact in your critisism of Wood Badge.

 

"Wood Badge (the bridge between corporate interests and volunteer training) promotes the idea that Scouting is all about abstract things like the "Aims of Scouting" or the "Mission Statement," so it is a quick bait and switch to declare that camping is "old fashioned" and that "values" can be just as easily taught to teenagers indoors or on a small Cub Scout campsite "sitting side by side with adults of character."

 

That opinion is borne of your personal fantasies. There is nothing in the current version of Wood Badge or in the two previous versions that reflect your notion of the content of Wood Badge in the slightest.

 

You simply have of no idea of what you speak.

 

 

[Stosh]

I'd like to see a show of hands here of the SM's and ASM's who currently don't teach traditional outdoor skills and self-suffiency as part of their unit program.

 

Go ahead, I'll wait patiently for you to raise your hands. When you do, please tell us what you have replaced those elements of your program with, whether it be staying at the Holidome or PS3 gaming or microwave cooking. Don't be embarrased. Anyone?

 

>>> And will all the boys interested in contemporary scouting as it is applied today? Raise your hands! Anyone? Done be embarrassed.

 

>>> The numbers are down, why do you think the BSA is trying all sorts of gimmicks to get the boys interested? It would seem that there are still boys out there that wish to learn the old ways. They want a program that teaches real things that mean something. They don't want to be parlor scouts. New uniforms, special emphasis, major celebrations, and fluff and hype. It'll attract a few, but for the most part, from what I have seen in my council and what seems to be common threads on the forum, it just doesn't seem to be doing the job. 2-3% of the boys Eagle. If the schools were accepting that as an acceptable gradutation percentage, one would surely find the school board under intense scrutiny. We accept failure as standard operating procedure and write it off as cars, girls and sports. Sorry, I don't accept the numbers that the rest accept.

 

Stosh

 

[Bob White]

"The numbers are down, why do you think the BSA is trying all sorts of gimmicks to get the boys interested?"

 

Which "old ways" would that be? Hiking? Camping? Citizenship?, Nature Study? Woods tools? Cooking? Emergency preparedness? Swimming? Archery? Firearms? Climbing and Rappelling? Caving? Boating? Youth Leadership? Knots and Lashings? Fitness? Orienteering? Horseback riding? Backpacking? Sports? Patrol activities?

 

ALL of course are still a part of the Boy Scouting program today as well as in the beginning of the program. How could you possibly not be aware of that

 

So which specific "old way" that the BSA supposedly no longer has are you referring to?

[Stosh]

"The numbers are down, why do you think the BSA is trying all sorts of gimmicks to get the boys interested?"

 

Which "old ways" would that be? Hiking? Camping? Citizenship?, Nature Study? Woods tools? Cooking? Emergency preparedness? Swimming? Archery? Firearms? Climbing and Rappelling? Caving? Boating? Youth Leadership? Knots and Lashings? Fitness? Orienteering? Horseback riding? Backpacking? Sports? Patrol activities?

 

ALL of course are still a part of the Boy Scouting program today as well as in the beginning of the program. How could you possibly not be aware of that

 

So which specific "old way" that the BSA supposedly no longer has are you referring to?

 

>>>>>>>> Boy led, patrol method

[Eagledad]

>>It'll attract a few, but for the most part, from what I have seen in my council and what seems to be common threads on the forum, it just doesn't seem to be doing the job. 2-3% of the boys Eagle.

[Bob White]

Jblake47, I see you have been visiting Kudu in his fantasy land.

 

You did not answer the question. Not onlyare the things you say the program has switched to not exist in the training or resources of the Boy Scout program, you failed to give eveidence to your own claim. You said that the "old ways that the BSA has abandoned has cost them membership.

 

But you have completed avoided telling us which old way that is.

 

It is isn't the Patrol Method because that is still taught and supported. It's not youth independence because if you pay attention during New Leaders Essentials, it explains specifically that the the programs of the BSA are designed to move a youth from reliance on adults to self-reliance.

 

So where is your evidence to support your fantasy? What "old way of scouting no longer exists that you say you can directly link to membership loss. What can you find in any BSA resource or training that supports your view that the BSA no longer uses the youth led patrol method?

 

You have no such evidence because none exists. You are making it up in hopes that those reading it will be as unwilling as you to research the facts and simply be swept away by your emotional make-believe.

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Stosh]

Jblake47, I see you have been visiting Kudu in his fantasy land.

 

>>> Sorry to disappoint, but I really don't find any need to visit Kudu and his fantasy land. I find very little to discuss with him, but I have asked a couple of questions of him for further clarification. I don't think that makes me his disciple. I just fully understand many of the scouting principles he is promoting.

 

>>> On the other hand I see you have been visiting BSA Madison Avenue and their fantasy land.

 

You did not answer the question. Not onlyare the things you say the program has switched to not exist in the training or resources of the Boy Scout program, you failed to give eveidence to your own claim. You said that the "old ways that the BSA has abandoned has cost them membership.

 

>>> Eagle scouts that don't camp? Boy leaders that don't lead. Eagle projects designed, directed and implemented by parents. Eagle projects that are basically a total waste of time.

 

But you have completed avoided telling us which old way that is.

 

>>> Back in the days when the boys lead and implemented the program rather than just participate in an adult directed program.

 

It is isn't the Patrol Method because that is still taught and supported. It's not youth independence because if you pay attention during New Leaders Essentials, it explains specifically that the the programs of the BSA are designed to move a youth from reliance on adults to self-reliance.

 

>>> It may be taught, but it surely isn't norm. The adults still have to relinquish their control of the program before the boys can lead. Ever wonder why the BOYS aren't being taught the NEW LEADERS ESSENTIALS? Isn't it the boys that are supposed to be the leaders and shouldn't they be taught the essentials? I would be happy if the boys actually led, but they don't. In theory of education in the BSA they should be leading, but they don't. Plain and simple. It doesn't get translated to the boys.

 

So where is your evidence to support your fantasy? What "old way of scouting no longer exists that you say you can directly link to membership loss. What can you find in any BSA resource or training that supports your view that the BSA no longer uses the youth led patrol method?

 

>>> If a patrol wants to go to summer camp, 1) they can't register at camp as a patrol, 2) they need 2 adults and 3) I don't think this is boy led, patrol method, being promoted in any sort of fashion.

 

You have no such evidence because none exists. You are making it up in hopes that those reading it will be as unwilling as you to research the facts and simply be swept away by your emotional make-believe.

 

>>> BW you may be an excellent source of quoting from BSA materials, but it is obvious that the practical application of these theories is NOT getting down to the boys. Teaching Business Administration, Finance and Accounting in the Ivory Towers of our prestigeous colleges in America does not put food on the table, manufacture the vehicles we travel in, nor provide goods and services to the masses until someone translates it down to the level where these things are happening. It looks good on paper, makes sense to the learned, but once people figure out that it doesn't work, not many people are going to tell the Emperor is running around naked.

 

>>> I hear people complaining about electronics the boys are glued to. I hear about the parents that force their boys to get their Eagles. I hear about all this crap and yet very little about the boys that want to be there and want the program and don't get it because some bozo adult leader can't reliquish responsibility to the boys to run their own program as they have theoretically been taught.

 

>>> Until that happens, I'm very pleased in my fantasy world of non-parlor scouts where they lead, direct, organize and run their own program. Where I as a SM am constantly working my self out of my job. When I have boys that have spent the big bucks and a weeks worth of time to attend NYLT and come back and complain that it wasn't worth neither the time nor the money, then there's something seriously wrong with the program. When I see year after year scout troops that recruit 20-30 new boys every year and at the end of 12 months have the same 15 scouts they started out with, it's obvious that something somewhere isn't working. And after putting my ear to the ground on this forum, I'm sure it's not just the units in my area that are struggling with these kinds of problems.

 

>>> Yes, I have had all the training BSA can offer. Yes, I have read the literature and manuals carefully. Yes, I have had about 40 years experience with working with kids both in scouting and outside of scouting. The #1 thing I have learned in my journey was that kids will hang around a program as long as the program provides what is promised, they will hang around. As soon as it doesn't, they're gone. Well, people, they are leaving Scouts in huge numbers. Maybe it's time to quit looking to National for the answers and start looking to the boys. I have. I have a successful program and my boys are excited about their new fantasy world of real scouting.

 

>>> Yes, I teach TLT and send my boys to NYLT, but they still insist on the old teaching courses from the 50's and 60's as well. If one doesn't provide the boys with what they want, they will not hang around. That roughly translates to the point I have been trying to make, but doesn't seem to be soaking in. (i.e. "So where is your evidence to support your fantasy? What "old way of scouting no longer exists that you say you can directly link to membership loss. What can you find in any BSA resource or training that supports your view that the BSA no longer uses the youth led patrol method?") If they were, the boys wouldn't leave.

 

Stosh