Annual Health and Medical Record Replaces Class 1,2, &3 Health Forms

[ASM915]

Beavah,

30 minute rule applying to Jambo? I thought each sub-camp had a MASH type setup with an MD an RN and a couple of orderlies, and that there was a medical facility on site to treat more critical issues until the person was medivaced out. If so, then the 30 minute rule is a moot point.

 

A 4 mile hike, or what ever the distance at Jambo is, doesn't sound like a HA activity to me, unless we're in the Sahara, Amazon or Antarctica.

 

[Beavah]

Yah, ASM915, I don't think that was me you're referring to. I was just jokin' that it was a Jambo PR move. Though clearly they can enforce da new rules there if they choose.

 

Of course, yeh must not have been around for da last fiasco. I think we were transportin' kids a few hundred miles because we created the largest mass casualty incident Virginia had ever seen.

 

Beavah

 

[moxieman]

ASM915 wrote: A 4 mile hike, or what ever the distance at Jambo is, doesn't sound like a HA activity to me, unless we're in the Sahara, Amazon or Antarctica.

 

I lived for two summers in DC. I've also lived in West Texas for a while. Jambo can be like the Amazon. The first summer I was in DC, we had record 100 to 105 deg heat WITH 90 degree dew point. Can you say "WHERE ARE MY GILLS!?!" You've heard the term pea soup fog so thick you could cut it with a knife. Imagine normal air so thick/heavy you wish you had a knife to cut through it. No, SERIOUSLY. That was the extreme. The two summers I was there, it was normally in the upper 80's/low 90's with upper 70's dew point temps. Very miserable for this "Damn Yankee" Mainah.

 

As much as I hated my time in TX, I'll take West Texas "dry heat" (105 to 115F usually with no more than 30F dew point) over the swamp DC can become in the summer time. So, YES, you will be hiking in the equivalent of the Amazon (without the promise of a daily rain shower, though you may still get one) and if you're not use to it, it will run you down very, very quickly.

[scoutldr]

Yeah, let's sit around and curse the weather. Damn Virginia! Conditions so horrendous no self=respecting human would live there. Let's move Jambo to the UP of Michigan in January, then we can even the score and make us Southerners suffer equally! FWIW, my council camp is about an hour from the Jambo site...never had a problem in the 40+ years I've been going there every July. The casualties at the last Jambo, from what I heard, were more from stupidity than the weather.

 

(This message has been edited by scoutldr)

[Hal_Crawford]

You guys are making fun of our capital weather. If it weren't for the humidity congress might stay here year round... nobody wants that. Seriously, up until the 1980s the British Foreign Office considered their embassy in DC to be a hardship post... equivalent to Jonestown Guiana.

 

 

[shortridge]

That's because it's so easy to make fun of!

 

Seriously, I live a little more than two hours away from D.C. It gets hot and humid here, too. But I have never sweated as much as I did one summer in Washington. For people who aren't used to it (and don't pay attention to the warnings), it can be a knockout punch.

[Kahuna]

Looks like the current Scouting magazine gives some clues as to where National is going with this stuff.

[scoutldr]

I just got my issue of Scouting today. I thought the tone of the article about Jambo was rather terse. "Medical devices" will not be supported. I use a CPAP machine, so I guess I'm out, although it never slows me down otherwise. Sounds like handicapped Scouts need not apply and are not welcome. Also sounds like a lot of those who think their application has been approved may be in for a rude awakening.

[Hal_Crawford]

Scoutldr:

Rather than making assumptions based on the Scouter article I would suggest that you visit the Jamboree site for more specific information.

 

http://www.bsajamboree.org/prepared.html

 

The site goes into a lot more detail about specific risk factors. It does not address your particular issue or define what they mean by "medical devices" but there is a link to contact them with questions about specific risk factors.

 

I think it is a bit of a leap to infer that handicapped scouts "need not apply and are not welcome". I certainly hope that is not the case.

 

Best of luck.

Hal

[Hal_Crawford]

Scoutledr:

After looking at the site again I see that I was wrong and it does address your condition under the adult guidelines:

 

"Participants with sleeping disorders may experience health risks due to long days and short nights for the duration of the jamboree. Participants with sleep apnea requiring a CPAP machine should reconsider participation. If considered fit, all equipment (e.g., CPAP machine) must be provided by the participant and be self-contained as there will not be electrical support for the machine. This includes batteries (without provisions for recharging) to be both brought to and taken away from the jamboree (remember Leave No Trace guidelines)".

 

Assuming that your CPAP is battery operated and that you are otherwise fit then it sounds like you can go (though they want you to think about it). I would check now to see what (if anything special) they want from your doctor so that the discussion doesn't go south at check-in. Could be a expensive conversation depending on how far you traveled from "The New World".

 

Again, best of luck,

Hal

 

 

[SMDonHall]

The wording on page one is confusing. It says parts A and C are to be completed annually, which is how it always was with the Class I medical form.

 

The Class II medical form used to be good for three years for Scouts. Is this no longer the case with the new Part B?

 

If so, I'm assuming that a scout can still use his class II medical form (Doctor's physical) this year even if it is older than one year, and not older than 3 years?

 

DH(This message has been edited by SMDonHall)

[annom200]

This is also big time discrimination towards all scouts and scouters who are heavy. I think this will go further than just leaders complaining i bet this will lead to parents complaining to National also!

 

I am willing to be that this rule on the weight requirement will be dropped.

 

Plus on most occasions when your getting a sick, or injured heavy person out, usually there always a way even if they have to bring in a helicopter to get them out.

 

They have always managed in the past to deal with these situations... plus a scout is kind, helpful, friendly, and brave, and are suppose to help out when the unexpected happens.

 

That what BEING PREPARED is all about i thought?

 

Its like saying well kick him out because he's accident prone, so don't let him do anything.

 

Yes i think they should be encouraging healthy programs such as making

program mandatory for both boys and leaders to encourage weight loss at camp.

 

Maybe even some sort of rewards for loosing weight, but it should NEVER be a rule that if your overweight you cannot attend. As I feel that discrimination.

 

That setting yourself up for NASTY consequences!! Including a possible dramatic loss of membership on both the leader and boy side of scouting.

 

But its not the right thing to do is tell kids especially that there to overweight to attend, scouts might take it the wrong way and you might never see them again!

 

Especially if they were looking forward to attending!

 

What if someone that was big from National and they accidentally fell and broke a bone or something, would it be nice to walk up to them and say well you shouldn't be here because your to big. Oh no i bet that wouldn't go over easy.

 

Well i wish that they would put themselves in other peoples shoes before making rules. What would happen if they were that BIG person and had to abide these rules. HA i bet this rule wouldn't be so fun then!

 

I do hope there some changes to this new form or I can almost assure you there will be a huge decrease in membership both leaders and boys wise!

 

YIS,

Annom200

[Hal_Crawford]

While it is hard to read the minds of those at National I don't think this is about the ability of people to carry an injured or ill victim out of the wilderness (or summer camp). The word that keeps popping up in places like the Jamboree web site is "risk factor". Being overweight puts one at higher risk for heart attack. If a person has a heart attack any delay in treatment can be fatal. According to Red Cross CPR classes victims who do not get defibrillated within 10 minutes have a very slim chance of survival. According to the ASHI/BSA Wilderness First Aid course I took, CPR is of minimal benefit in the backcountry because you can't perform it long enough to get the victim to the type of life support needed for them to survive. Philmont has used these weight limits for a while and they seem appropriate to me for the conditions in that specific program.

 

Someone suggested that the weight ranges are based on BMI numbers. I ran the numbers for my height and found that for my height (68") the top end or the recommended range is already considered "overweight" and the maximum weight is well into the "obese" range. If they are using BMI as a standard then they are giving us a lot of leeway. To be in the BSA recommended weight I need to lose about 10 pounds; to be good by BMI charts I need to lose more than 20.

 

That being said I think that BSA is over-applying this standard if it will be applied to non-high adventure activities. This will impact some long-time and/or active scouters I know. More distressing is that it could exclude some scouts from things like summer camp and many other activities. I have seen at least one overweight scout decide after several years of scouting that he wanted to lose weight to do a high-adventure trek. I don't think he would have lost the weight for summer camp by itself and we might have lost him from the troop.

 

 

 

[scoutingagain]

"This is also big time discrimination towards all scouts and scouters who are heavy."

 

That may be true but the BSA has never had a problem discriminating against those they don't feel qualify as members or are the "best kind of citizen". It is a private organization free to set it's own membership and participation requirements and can discriminate against anyone they want for just about any reason they feel like.

 

Having said that I tend to agree with Hal. I think having certain physical standards for those activities where those with higher risks put not just themselves at risk but also put an entire crew and outing at risk is completely appropriate. However for most of the standard car camping, weekend outing, summer camp activities I would hope that these standards would not apply for just the reason Hal mentioned. I have also seen scouts take fitness far more seriously when confronted with the prospect of not being able to attend a high adventure activity.

 

SA

 

 

 

[annom200]

This is a post from nationals Health and Saftey team... And I do say i have to agree with them!! But this is interesting information for anyone concerned...

 

From: Health and Safety Team

Subject: RE: Web site questions

To:

Date: Friday, January 2, 2009, 5:00 PM

 

There were many factors considered when putting this together. Risk and Experience are probably the two biggest factors:

 

Risk is the simplest answer. Scouting in the great outdoor classroom we work is all about management of risks. In this case the higher the adventure, the farther away from transport the higher the risk to not only the individual but to the unit or patrol. How many 11 year old Boy Scouts does it take to bring a 300 lb man off a mountain? This is a huge risk to a a trained rescue team and a wheel stretcher. As to helicopter evacuation not many units have $25,000 laying around to pay for an emergency evacuation bill.

 

Experience is another. The depth of knowledge of the team that worked this out is incredible. Represented was the best we have in the movement. We have folks with high adventure and camping experience, Den leaders, Paramedics, Safety Professionals, Wilderness Medical Professionals, Nurses and can hang our hat that the folks who contributed have and continue to provide mountain top experiences for our youth.

 

If you would review the FAQs and the form the H/W is not necessarily a requirement for most resident camps.

 

From the form:

 

It is important to note that the height/weight chart must be strictly adhered to if the event will take the unit

 

Beyond a radius wherein emergency evacuation is more than 30 minutes by ground transportation, such as

 

Backpacking trips, high-adventure activities, and conservation projects in remote areas

 

And Individuals desiring to participate in any high-adventure activity or events in which emergency evacuation would take longer than 30 minutes by ground transportation will not be permitted to do so if they exceed the weight limit as documented at the bottom of this page. Enforcing the height/weight limit is strongly encouraged for all other events, but it is not mandatory

 

From the FAQ:

 

Q. There are three parts to the Annual Health and Medical Record, which part do I need to fill out?

A. All participants should fill out Parts A and C for any event. Part B (the physical examination) should be completed if you are participating in an event that exceeds 72 consecutive hours, such as jamborees, summer camps, and Wood Badge training courses. Part B also is required for participation in a resident camp setting or when the nature of the activity is strenuous and demanding such as service projects, work weekends, or high-adventure treks. It is important to note that if the event will take your unit beyond a radius wherein emergency care is more than 30 minutes by ground transportation, the height/weight chart found at the bottom of Part B should be strictly followed. Please note that individual units, districts, or councils may have policies in place to exceed this standard based on their unique risks

 

As you describe your experience it should not impact you or others in any way that you have not been impacted in the past. So status quo. You would still be subject to whatever requirements the camp may impose.

 

In addition, physical fitness should have already been considered in the planning process if following the sweet 16 of BSA safety. Again, nothing new. Think about this, would we want to put someone on a rope or ladder designed for 250 lbs that weighed 325?

 

Thank you for your comments. We are logging them and using them to develop our FAQs.

 

 

 

 

 

Richard R. Bourlon, P.E., CSP

Team Leader, Health and Safety

 

 

 

BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA

1325 West Walnut Hill Lane

P.O. Box 152079

Irving, TX 75015-2079

 

 

Anyways he did a nice job of explaining the new forms... The height and weight requirements ARE NOT MANDATORY but strongly recommended...

 

YIS,

Annom200