Annual Health and Medical Record Replaces Class 1,2, &3 Health Forms

[NJCubScouter]

Based on the language on the form itself (quoted above by Hal), I would agree with Bob. I think "evacuated" means that the injured/ill person has left from the site of the incident (or from where someone has carried him), in a vehicle, within 30 minutes after the emergency occurs. Virtually every "regular" summer camp site would be "within range", because there is always some vehicle there to take the person to the hospital. (In other words, the vehicle does not have to be an ambulance.)

 

However, that is not all the BSA has written about this subject. The links given earlier in this thread take you to a FAQ for this form, and here is what the FAQ says about the height/weight chart:

 

"It is important to note that if the event will take your unit beyond a radius wherein emergency care is more than 30 minutes by ground transportation, the height/weight chart found at the bottom of Part B should be strictly followed."

 

That seems to change the whole answer. On the form, "evacuation" must be within 30 minutes away. In the FAQ, "emergency care" must be within 30 minutes away. Of course, that raises the question of what "emergency care" is. Is it a Scout with First Aid merit badge? Is it a Scouter who happens to have an EMT certificate? (But, of course, none of his/her equipment at camp.) Probably not, in both cases. Does it mean a MICU dispatched from the nearest hospital? Or does it have to be a hospital emergency department?

 

Since the BSA has published both the form and the FAQ, I think they need to clarify things so people will know what the rules are.

[Hal_Crawford]

NJ:

Wow! I completely missed that in the FAQ. I guess I just scanned the headings. That does change the question. I agree with you that the crux is the definition of "emergency care".

 

I also reread the last part of the passage from the form: "Enforcing the height/weight limit is strongly encouraged for all other events, but it is not mandatory". I now take this to mean that they recommend enforcing the limits for ALL events, even those that do not involve high adventure or are within the 30 minute radius. Am I nuts or is that what they really mean?

 

 

[SMEagle819]

I agree with most of the postings: yes, the way it is written is very ambiguous. National could have done a better job with it, and hopefully, they will revise the wording.

 

I also agree with BW in starting a "Scouters weight loss challenge," even if it is only for support. I could definitely stand to lose 20-25 pounds...

[vol_scouter]

Emergency Medical care usually refers to a reasonably equipped emergency room where a seriously injured or ill patient can be possibly stabilized prior to definitive treatment. It does not refer to a health lodge even if staffed by a physician (because the equipment and help does not exist to stabilize seriuously ill patients).

[NJCubScouter]

I am starting to wonder about this theory that the new policy is based on the difficulty of carrying someone of a particular weight. Is it easier to carry a 230 pound person who is 6'0" than a 230 pound person who is 5'10"? (I think the answer is no, but if anyone thinks it is yes, I would be interested to hear why.) According to the chart, the 6'0" person can go on high adventure trips but the 5'10" person cannot. It seems more likely to me that the relative likelihood of health concerns for someone who is overweight for their height would be at least a partial reason for the policy. Obviously it is not a precision measurement of "fitness" but is based on averages. I have been on both sides of the "maximum line" myself, fortunately at the moment I am below the line, but as many of us know, it's not easy to stay there.

[NJCubScouter]

Hal says:

 

I also reread the last part of the passage from the form: "Enforcing the height/weight limit is strongly encouraged for all other events, but it is not mandatory". I now take this to mean that they recommend enforcing the limits for ALL events, even those that do not involve high adventure or are within the 30 minute radius. Am I nuts or is that what they really mean?

 

That's what it seems to say. What summer camps, councils etc. will interpret it to mean, and whether they do what it seems they are being "strongly encouraged" to do, I guess we will see. I think it would be pretty disruptive if it were enforced everywhere, even with a year's notice. I am getting a picture in my mind of the leaders of our district enforcing this at a camporee or other district event, but the picture is kind of murky because most of them wouldn't be allowed there to enforce it in the first place. Sorry, says the 280-pound, 5'9" district official to the 245-pound, 6'0' Scoutmaster, you have to leave because your health form says you weigh too much. My guess is that it will be awhile before this is enforced at "ordinary" Scouting activities.

[scoutldr]

Thank you, Counsellor. That is exactly the logic I've been trying to put forth here. If "risk of medical emergency" is the criterion, then we need more "screen-out" factors than weight. Let's have maximum limits for trigycerides, blood pressure, diabetes, smoking, etc etc. The "can't carry a fat guy" argument fails to hold water. When I teach BSA Lifeguard, I purposely choose a victim who is NOT a typical 70 lb 11 year old...usually myself or the Aquatics Director (a female who is more obese than I am, but much more bouyant). It builds their confidence to know there are methods whereby a couple of skinny kids can rescue me off the bottom of the pool, get me on a backboard and out of the pool where they can do CPR.

 

Allow me to throw out another challenge...if I grow 6 inches taller, problem solved and I meet the standards. Anyone want to join me? (my success with this will be about the same).

 

PS: What else is ambiguous, is who exactly will be the "Enforcer". As I read it, the form is speaking to the health care provider who must sign the form. In reality, the 14 yo CIT who inspects my medical record when I check in at summer camp will just be looking for a signature and date. If the form says "strongly encouraged", then I don't know many MD's who will sign the form, knowing they are going against BSA "recommendations" as stated on the form. They won't be privy to these discussions, nor to the FAQ on the BSA website which may or may not clarify ambiguities.(This message has been edited by scoutldr)

[Bob White]

Inability to meet the height/weight limit does not mean you cannot be a volunteer in the BSA programs. It only means that you will not be allowed to risk your welfare or the welfare of others by participating in High Adventure activities.

 

That is not a bad thing.

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[scoutldr]

Thanks for your unofficial opinion, Bob. But, following your inerrant advice to just "read and follow the BSA program materials", most of us have formed different unofficial opinions. So, until the BSA clarifies the intent, in writing, we will just have to agree to disagree.

[Be_Prepared]

Another item on the form that is odd is the Talent Release Form. I have no idea how this could possilby be enforced or tracked.

 

Summer camps do not typically keep old copies of health forms, so would have no idea who checked off 'no' for any post camp pictures, publications, etc.

 

Is not checking the box implied consent ?

 

What if somebody doesn't check the box, then after the fact, decided to check the box - who or how could anybody know

 

I have only seen talent release forms used for single events - not an overall form that would be used for multiple things in a year ( unit camping, district event, council camp, Jamboree )

 

I think this could open up all sorts of problems. A parent checks 'no' and their son's picture appears in a slide deck for a summer camp promo. How on earth could any event monitor this ? Have all 'no' scouts wear a sign around their neck ?

 

 

[scoutldr]

All of this is for 2010 Jambo purposes. There is no valid reason that a "talent release" should be connected to a Health and Medical form.

[evmori]

Inability to meet the height/weight limit does not mean you cannot be a volunteer in the BSA programs. It only means that you will not be allowed to risk your welfare or the welfare of others by participating in High Adventure activities.

 

That is not a bad thing.

 

The interesting part of this post is It only means that you will not be allowed to risk your welfare or the welfare of others by participating in High Adventure activities.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this form is to be used for all Scouters & Scouts for all events, correct? It does seem the section regarding the chart of the normal & fat people is meant to be used for high adventure, but the following statement from the form would indicate this should be applied to all BSA activities.

 

Enforcing the height/weight limit is strongly encouraged for all other events, but it is not mandatory.

 

So unless Mr. White is the official spokesman for the BSA regarding this I would be wary.

[Vicki]

OK, to depart slightly from the fun and games of semantics slicing - someone mentioned awhile ago that they had problems tracking down a parent with the insurance card (even though the info was on the form). For years now, I've copied the front and back of our insurance cards onto the back of the form with big red letters on the front that say "Please see over."

 

And no, I don't give my SSN to anybody who can't prove they have a valid reason for asking - and the BSA medical form doesn't qualify.

 

Vicki

[Eagle92]

According to the FAQ the talent release was added b/c several councils asked for it all to be on one form.

 

As for the heioght and weight requirements, it will force alot of units to lose volunteers on activities since my reading of the language is that it is not limited to HA activities, but any scout activity with and hospital more than 30 minutes away. You do have some scout camps that do not meet the 30 minute rule, heck it took me 45 to drive folks to the hospital at one camp I worked at.

 

 

[evmori]

And no, I don't give my SSN to anybody who can't prove they have a valid reason for asking - and the BSA medical form doesn't qualify.

 

Good thing this isn't required on the medical form, huh?