No Older Boy Scouts?

[Bob White]

If a group of 11 year olds what to go camping that is no concern of your as a Scoutmaster, Kids can go do anything their parents saty they can do.

 

But is they are going to go as scouts using troopp equipments then don't you have a rewsponsibility to make sure they are trained to care for themselves and their equipment?

 

Would you lend a poserr tool to a neighbor if you first weren't sure that he knew how to use it. Or do you not care about his safety or the condition your tool comes back in.

 

We are't talking about overprotectiveness here we are talking about responsible behavior on the part of an adult.

 

If you think taking a year for a new scout to learn basic skills of camping in order for a patrol to start camping on their own is then how long do you think it should take?

 

 

[Bob White]

poserr tool= power tool

[Kudu]

SR540Beaver writes:

 

"If all the units in my council followed the excellent example set at our 21st Century Wood Badge courses, they would have their patrols in different campsites spread across the whole camp.....because that is what we've done both weekends."

 

Yeah, that excellent example is probably the very last vestige of Baden-Powell's Wood Badge, isn't it?

 

The question is:

 

"Why do so very few holders of the Wood Badge take the Wood Badge Patrol Method home to their own Troops?"

 

Wood Badge teaches participants to receive Boy Scout Patrols as opportunities to practice Leadership Development theory. Therefore, the more elections the better because a higher turnover of Patrol Leaders and other "Positions of Responsibility" (POR) means a higher number of Scouts can learn Leadership Development theory.

 

What would happen if we encouraged the same rate of turnover in BSA Lifeguards, or Little League pitchers? You would see the depth of the water or the distance between bases shrink in proportion to the actual competency of the POR, just as the distance between Patrols shrinks when the purpose of the Patrol Method is to practice "leadership" theory.

 

If the purpose of the Patrol Method was still ADVENTURE (and membership retention) as it was before the invention of Leadership Development, then the distance between Wood Badge Patrols would be part of the theory taught at Wood Badge. When participants returned to their home Troops, they would routinely post to Scouter.Com and other forums for practical suggestions as to how to actually spread out the Patrols in their unit as they learned in Wood Badge.

 

Most of the objections to bringing the practice home are excuses NOT reasons: they are the kind theoretical gloom and doom that skeptics howled not so very long ago when they brainstormed "reasons" why it was "impossible" for the BSA to sell an outdoor Uniform

 

Kudu

(This message has been edited by Kudu)

[BrentAllen]

Kudu,

Happy New Year!

 

I'm wondering how things work in your unit when you go camping. Is it a Troop rule that patrols must camp at least 300' apart? Is this enforced by the SM? What happens if two patrols wish to camp closer to each other? Are they allowed to do that, or are they over-ruled by the SM?

[Bob White]

Kudu writes "Wood Badge teaches participants to receive Boy Scout Patrols as opportunities to practice Leadership Development theory. Therefore, the more elections the better because a higher turnover of Patrol Leaders and other "Positions of Responsibility" (POR) means a higher number of Scouts can learn Leadership Development theory."

 

That is absolute gibberish, a total fallacy without any basis in either truth or knowledge. Anyone who has attended BSA Wood Badge in any of its versions knows that this is not a part of it's curriculum.

 

A fact which has been explained to Kudu in the past and yet he continues to spout this nonsense.

 

[BadenP]

I would not be so quick to dismiss Kudu's statement. In the original Woodbadge classes there was not the same emphasis on leadership theory that the new Woodbadge contains in their curriculum. Now not taking it to the extreme that he does the patrol methodology does seem to have been altered from what was presented in the original course, just an observation from reviewing my materials from both courses.

[SR540Beaver]

What do you consider as "original" Wood Badge course? Baden Powell held the first course in 1919. The first experimental course in the US was in 1936 and officially inaugurated in 1948. For the first 10 years, the BSA conducted courses for exclusively for council representatives in methods of training to assist with leadership training at the council level. In 1958, councils were authorized to conduct their own courses. Course content was revised in the late 60's and late 70's as well as 1994 and 2003. The content has always dealt with leadership training since day one.

[Bob White]

You are correct SR540Beaver, there was also a content change in around 1980. I in none of those versions would anyone have been taught the drivel claimed by Kudu in his post.

[Kudu]

SR540Beaver writes:

 

"The content has always dealt with leadership training since day one."

 

You will know that the BSA is gearing up for a "Wood Badge for the Second Decade of the 21st Century" to move us from the profound secrets of business management into the era of soccer for Latinos, when SR540Beaver starts substituting the word "referee" for "leadership" and boldly asserts that "Wood Badge has always dealt with sportsmanship training since day one."

 

The idea that Scouting "leadership" exists separately from Patrol Outdoor Skills was invented in 1972, NOT "day one"

 

BobWhite writes:

 

"A fact which has been explained to Kudu in the past and yet he continues to spout this nonsense."

 

For those who slept through Wood Badge and do not understand its goals, simply volunteer to staff the Patrol Method session of Scoutmaster and Assistant Scoutmaster Specific Training. If you actually read the course outline you will understand its plain meaning.

 

BobWhite writes:

 

"the drivel claimed by Kudu...absolute gibberish"

 

BobWhite, recently you claimed that only one person has made it to your "Ignore" list. How exactly can the rest of us earn that much-coveted status?

 

Brent Allen writes:

 

"Kudu, Happy New Year!"

 

And a Happy New Year to you, my neighbor to the north. I hear Dunwoody will bring in the New Year at 27 F tonight. That is 5 degrees below FREEZING! bbbbrrrrrrrrrr how can you live so close to the north pole?

 

Brent Allen writes:

 

"I'm wondering how things work in your unit when you go camping.

 

In the interest of full disclosure I live in the south now, in a one-Troop town with 50 Scouts and a Troop trailer full of heavy Patrol boxes However, a year after leaving I am still listed as Scoutmaster of my old Troop up north because they can not find a new one, so I suppose I can still say "my unit"

 

Brent Allen writes:

 

"Is it a Troop rule that patrols must camp at least 300' apart?"

 

Understand that once Scouts have camped a football field away from the nearest adult, it becomes something that they WANT to do, as long as the weight of their gear is not too much to lug. So the proper question is "Is there a Troop rule that governs which Patrols are ALLOWED to camp 300' away?"

 

I admire your use of the Patrol Method including Patrol cooking at summer camp, but it sounds like you haven't tried this yet. If not, then why not let your strongest Patrol camp a little further away just as an experiment? I think you and your most mature Scouts will find it very rewarding.

 

Brent Allen writes:

 

"Is this enforced by the SM?

 

No, a "football field apart" is the ideal, but at night that distance can vary greatly depending on the conditions.

 

It is a personality thing not a strict "rule"! If the strongest boy-leader is a Patrol Leader, then his Patrol gets to camp the furthest away from the adults. The weaker the leader, the closer I want him to me, but I don't micro-manage a good Patrol Leader unless he spaced out on the previous campout. A Patrol only holds an election when they need a new Patrol Leader, so the strongest, most committed boy in the Patrol is almost always the Patrol Leader for as long as he continues to go camping.

 

If the strongest boy-leader is the SPL (as it was when I left), then I leave the spacing up to him after we discuss it. A strong SPL does not always follow my advice, but he hears about it when he is wrong

 

Brent Allen writes:

 

"What happens if two patrols wish to camp closer to each other? Are they allowed to do that, or are they over-ruled by the SM?"

 

No problem, they just have to set up nearer to the adults, Cub Scout style, like in most BSA Troops these days.

 

As Mike F points out, letting two Patrols camp close together without adult supervision can be a serious mistake. Be careful with that.

 

Kudu

 

 

 

[SR540Beaver]

kudu,

 

I'm curious. Have you ever even attended a Wood Badge course? When? I've been a participant and staffed two courses. I also attended the Course Directors Development Conference in Dallas not too long ago in preparation to be the back up course director and I'm willing to bet that I'm just a tad more in tune with what is actually taught at Wood Badge and what is coming down the pike. It isn't remotely like anything you have ever attempted to describe here. You can continue to tilt at Wood Badge windmills to your heart's content, but know that the members here who have been to Wood Badge know that you have no practical idea of what you are talking about.

 

I apologize for being so blunt, but it is the truth.(This message has been edited by sr540beaver)

[Bob White]

"For those who slept through Wood Badge and do not understand its goals, simply volunteer to staff the Patrol Method session of Scoutmaster and Assistant Scoutmaster Specific Training. If you actually read the course outline you will understand its plain meaning."

 

Then you will have no trouble sharing with us the specific cource section that has this information is in it.

 

Your view on the contents of Wood Badge is fantasized blather and nothing more. You are grossly misrepresenting the contents of the course. I am not sure what syllabus you read, But I assure you that I and others on this forum are far more acquainted with the contents of this syllabus, and previous ones, than you are, and what you say is not only NOT in this course, it has not been in any previous course either.

 

Your posts are simply untrue. And I see no need to be blunt when supporting the truth.

 

As far as how to get on my ignore list...your posts are far to humorous to merit that distinction.

[BrentAllen]

Kudu,

Yes, a little chilly way up north here in Dunwoody! :-) Happy Official 2009!

 

No, we haven't had patrols camp 300' apart yet, but not because anyone has prevented it. When we arrive at our destination, the PLs decide where they want to camp, and I then select the site for the adults. I check with the PLs to make sure they are ok with our site selection. Usually we don't have enough room to spread out too far, due to the characteristics of the site. I think we achieve most of what you are after by telling the adults (including me) they are not allowed in the patrol sites. This was especially important at summer camp, and the adults complied. I think I will start trying to select a site further away from the boys, when possible, and see if it makes a difference.

 

We are headed down to the Okefenokee Swamp next month for a 4 day/ 3 night canoeing trip. They recommend following guidelines for bear country camping - doing your cooking at least 200' from the tents. That might make the distances a little bit of a challenge, but we might be able to get the adults on the other side of the cooking area.

 

I paid a little ransom today to give an old 17' Ouachita canoe a new lease on life (a late Christmas present to myself). I don't know how old the canoe is, but it hasn't seen much water, other than rain. As soon as the temperature rises and the wind drops, we are going to hit the Chattahoochee and see how she handles. Every SM should own a canoe, no?