No Older Boy Scouts?

[diogenes]

I think he means that to reach Eagle, you have to know something more than Scout "lore" like you do for AoL. AoL trains you to be a Boy Scout, Eagle trains you to be a leader in the world.

[Bob White]

Correct for Bobcat you have to study and know elements of the Cub Scout program and Cub Scout traditions, the same is true of earning AOL/Scout Badge. But you do not study "Boy Scouting" to advance in other ranks.

[Kudu]

Eagle92 wites:

 

"Also can you show me where in the current training syllabi where it says scouts can go on patrol events without adults? I honestly don't remember reading that, but I know you should always have 2 deep leadership."

 

It is mentioned in the Guide to Safe Scouting under "Leadership Requirements for Trips and Outings:"

 

Two-deep leadership: Two registered adult leaders, or one registered leader and a parent of a participating Scout or other adult, one of whom must be at least 21 years of age or older, are required for all trips or outings. There are a few instances, such as patrol activities, when no adult leadership is required.

 

It is also mentioned in the Scoutmaster Handbook on page 22 under "Patrol Activities."

 

Perhaps Bob White can give us an exact page reference if it is indeed mentioned in Leader Specific Training.

 

However, to merely MENTION that we allow Patrols to hike and camp without adults patrol events is like mentioning that we allow Boy Scouts to swim in water over their heads.

 

Why do so very few Scoutmasters allow that kind of thing (if only in the context of using Baden-Powell's distance of 300 feet between Patrols on regular Troop campouts)?

 

Because WE DO NOT TRAIN THEM how to do it!

 

As detailed above, the Patrol Leader Training course was ended in 1972. It was called "Intensive Training in the Green Bar Patrol." The Scoutmaster acted as Patrol Leader, the SPL as his Assistant Patrol Leader, and all of the Patrol Leaders and Assistant Patrol Leaders were the Green Bar Patrol members. The Scoutmaster showed them how to plan Patrol Hikes and Patrol Overnights, and then the "Green Bar Patrol" ACTUALLY DID REAL WORLD Patrol Hikes and Patrol Overnights. See:

 

http://inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar/index.htm

 

But not anymore! What do suppose would happen if we treated Boy Scout Lifeguards the way we treat Boy Scout Patrol Leaders?

 

Really, why don't our leadership "experts" cancel REAL WORLD waterfront training like they canceled REAL WORLD Patrol Leader training? Why not substitute manager theory for Lifeguard training like they do with Patrol Leaders? "BSA Lifeguard" is a "Position of Responsibility" isn't it? Why not give them POR credit for advancement and hold elections every six months so that the Troop can decide whose "turn" it is to be Lifeguard? Then take away REAL WORLD training and teach Lifeguards to save lives with EDGE and an office manger formula like forming-storming-norming-performing.

 

It sounds stupid, but it is no more stupid than taking away REAL WORLD training for Patrol Leaders like we did in 1972 and then wonder why the few boys that remain are not competent to camp even 300 feet from the nearest adult as Baden-Powell suggested.

 

The problem is the program, not the volunteers.

 

If we trusted leadership "experts" to handle Lifeguard training like they now handle Patrol Leader training, then 36 years from now most Troops would go swimming in baby pools, just as most Troops now go camping in baby campsites.

 

Gee, why no older Boy Scouts? The reason is that we teach "leadership" rather than the Patrol Method.

 

Kudu

 

 

[SR540Beaver]

I've always wondered what was so magical about the 300 foot distance for a patrol site. Will the patrol method fail at 275? Is 290 OK? Is it that boys are too lazy to walk 300 feet and therefore will stay out of another patrol's site? If they are too lazy to walk 300 feet, how can we expect them to hike? Why is 300 the magical number?

[Bob White]

Any notion that that a leadership function or a camping skill is based on distance just is not logical.

 

Independence is a matter of choice not of distance.

[Bob White]

Any notion that that a leadership function or a camping skill is based on distance just is not logical.

 

The reason BP wanted patrol separated by that distance is he same reason the BSA supports Patrol Campouts. Too many adult can't control themselves around young people. They can't keep their mouth closed long enough for a youth to make their own desicion and try it. So BP's solution was to put the adult far enough away to make it too inconvenient for him to constantly walk around and tell the boys what to do.

 

From the amount of complaining over the weight chart it seems that if patrols are 50 ft apart that a lot of adults will be too uncomfortable to walk over and micr-manage them.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Kudu]

SR540Beaver writes:

 

"I've always wondered what was so magical about the 300 foot distance for a patrol site. Will the patrol method fail at 275? Is 290 OK? Is it that boys are too lazy to walk 300 feet and therefore will stay out of another patrol's site? If they are too lazy to walk 300 feet, how can we expect them to hike? Why is 300 the magical number?"

 

It is magical because it dates back to the very beginning of the Patrol System. "A football field apart" is easier for Scouts to understand. In some Councils "The same distance apart as Wood Badge Patrols" would work for adults.

 

If we actually used Baden-Powell's Patrol System (as the fake Baden-Powell quotes in our literature imply), then the "best" distance between Patrols would be a popular topic of debate, rather than an abstract idea that "leadership" advocates feel compelled to sneer at.

 

For instance, I think 20-50 feet apart is better for inexperienced or problematic Patrols. Have you experimented with 275 feet, or 290 feet, SR540Beaver? Or have you merely "always wondered"?

 

Kudu

 

 

[Mike F]

Whenever local conditions allow, we spread the patrols out to a football field (sometimes further) distance. If they have any "issues", they are reeled in closer on the following campout. I find that's sufficient motivation to keep things under control - the guys love the freedom. BW's right - adults seldom wander over, but the SPL gets in a workout wandering around to keep a loose eye on things.

Note: Patrols need to stay isolated from each other. The only major issue we ever had was when a couple of patrols decided to camp close to each other far away from adults and things escalated in a way they shouldn't have. Now I understand the rationale behind saying a patrol can camp alone. One clear leader and one group of guys under his control.

[Beavah]

Yah, it's good backcountry LNT practice too, eh? Travel in small groups, and camp far enough apart that there's no "natural" footpath between sites which will be turned into an informal trail.

 

BW's got the right of it. The distance thing isn't magic, it's just that environment contributes a lot to our behavior. The distance sets up an environment that encourages good scouting behavior. Adults don't hover, and boys can't easily keep running to the adults or another patrol when they forgot their spice kit or can't find the propane hose.

 

Independent patrol trips are even better, because that means the adults have to do what Kudu's talking about, eh? Train the boys to perform on their own in the real world. First Class has to actually mean first class camper. Being Patrol Leader has to mean really bein' responsible. Older boys thrive on such independence and responsibility, far more than they crave a guided-tour high adventure trip, as Eagledad points out.

 

I'm not really sure that anybody in da U.S. would be comfortable with independent patrol trips of a same-age group of 11-12 year-olds, though. Or with distant campsites for that age group patrol. That's where the age-based "den" scoutin' seems to break down.

 

Beavah

 

[Bob White]

Where did anyone say to send a patrol that wasn't ready. It has nothing to withage and everything to do with skill level. I certainly would never send a new Scout patrol camping by themselves, but by the end of the first year I could have them camping with adults in a different campsite near them.

 

By the end of their second year they would have the skills needed to plan an outing outing and stay overnight on their own with no problem. And if a Scoutmaster isn't training scouts to be able to be independent then they are training them to be dependent.

 

And that's not what they are supposed to be doing.

 

 

[Beavah]

I certainly would never send a new Scout patrol camping by themselves, but by the end of the first year I could have them camping with adults in a different campsite near them.

 

So then you agree that in the U.S., even you would not "be comfortable with independent patrol trips of a same-age group of 11-12 year-olds."

 

B

[Kudu]

In the 1920s the BSA model of Scouting included two different sets of Aims: ADULT AIMS (Character, Citizenship), and "BOY AIMS" (Pleasure, Interest).

 

From the Scout's perspective the "Purpose" of spreading those Patrols out is ADVENTURE.

 

 

[Bob White]

Beavah , If you understood or practiced the program element of Patrol activities you would understand that it doesn't mean to send out patrols that are not trained. Neither does it mean to never train them enough to be able to do independent actiities. And you wouldn't be debating against it.

 

I also said that it is not about age as you keep trying to make it. It's about skills. Skills that the Scoutmaster is supposed to insure they are learning and practicing.

[SR540Beaver]

Kudu,

 

If all the units in my council followed the excellent example set at our 21st Century Wood Badge courses, they would have their patrols in different campsites spread across the whole camp.....because that is what we've done both weekends.

[Beavah]

Beavah , If you understood or practiced the program element of Patrol activities...

 

Again with da personal digs, BW? That just doesn't get old for you, does it? Far from debating against independent patrol activities, what I actually wrote was "Independent patrol trips are even better, because that means the adults have to do what Kudu's talking about, eh? Train the boys to perform on their own in the real world. First Class has to actually mean first class camper."

 

Troops that I've been involved with have all run independent patrol outings, and usually camped well away from each other. The boys all learned to do that through a program run by older boys, not so much through adults who "trained" them.

 

But 'tis Christmas Eve! God bless us, every one! Even 8 Beaver's Building and da BobWhite in a pear tree!

 

Beavah