No Older Boy Scouts?

[Eagle92]

Sorry BW, but it can't be the SMs. I had a WB trained SM of 25 years. At one point early in my scouting career, a patrol hike without adults was OK. Later on we needed an adult. Same exact hike, just some timing differences to make it shorter. Needed an adult. Also when I was with the Leadership Corps, the older scout patrol at the time, we couldn't do hikes without an adult. Yep couldn't do the Vicksaburg cross country hike unless an adult was with us. Also couldn't do the two road hikes at Vicksburg without an adult, and I can go on.

 

Also can you show me where in the current training syllabi where it says scouts can go on patrol events without adults? I honestly don't remember reading that, but I know you should always have 2 deep leadership.

[Bob White]

A perfect example Eagle 92. Patrols have ALWAYS been able to to hikes and overnight campouts without adults with the permission if the Scoutmaster ...ALWAYS. Even when you were a scout. Your leaders either did not know or did not tell you. It is still in the Handbook today. In fact is in the Scoutmasters Handbook, the Guide to Safe Scoutin, the Youth Protection training, AND it is in the syllabus of the Leader Specific Training.

 

The problem is not in the BSA program, it is the lack of use of the BSA program by some scouters.

 

If you are in a unit where scouts are not doing activities independent of adults it is not because of the scouting program, it is because of the leaders in that specific unit.

 

 

 

 

 

[Beavah]

In the Sea Scout Ship I serve we have boats racing every weekend of the sailing season with all scout crews that race several nautical miles.

 

While I salute your ship for what it's doin', it is a violation of Safety Afloat and the G2SS, eh? Remember the safety sandwich? Qualified adult supervision by a person over age 21 for all trips afloat?

 

Beavah

 

[Bob White]

Again Beavah, You simple do not understand the program or the BSA safety policies. You are not required to have an adult aboard a vessel in order to have adult supervision. When you canoe do you have an adult in every canoe? Sail boats are treated no differently.

 

Sea Scouting is a program you have no training in or experience in Beavah. I could understand you asking questions about it but you lack the background to be telling anyone what the program is or what the rules are.

[BadenP]

Yea Beavah, the almighty BW has a sea scout ship with 3 one man sailboats so he is an expert and besides he is never wrong, lol.

[Beavah]

Nah, BW, yeh missed the point, eh? I agree with yeh that I'm not a Sea Scouter. And I'd also agree with you that I would allow a crew of highschoolers who were well trained and who had demonstrated proficiency to operate a vessel on their own, albeit after considerable thought. Where we disagree is that the conditions in U.S. scouting are comparable to international scouting.

 

Yeh see, my point about international Sea Scouting is that Sea Scouts can operate without adult supervision. Like as not, they have keys to the ship docks and can go take a boat out with no adults around at all. Go swimming with no adults around at all. Cross national boundaries with no adults aboard even. That isn't the same thing as bein' in a group of canoes or lasers traveling in a close group with adult chase boats and a race committee yacht.

 

Point is it's not just sea scoutin'. Yeh talk as if fellow scouters who don't run independent patrol outings are incompetent doofuses, eh? But then when yeh read state statutes that have become ridiculously expansive in their definitions of criminal child neglect, yeh have to pause. Take this bute of a neglect definition from Texas:

 

placing a child in or failing to remove a child from a situation that a reasonable person would realize requires judgment or actions beyond the child's level of maturity, physical condition, or mental abilities.

 

Now, are yeh ready to bet that a reasonable group of non-scoutin' adults in your area is going to believe that allowing a bunch of middle school boys to travel and camp without adults in the big, scary woods is within their level of maturity? Or even that having your sea scouts that far from shore, perhaps a mile ahead of the nearest boat in choppy conditions is OK? Here in the land of the regulated warning signs on ladders and the home of the Fearful?

 

Remember, this statute is a criminal one, eh? A take-your-children-away-put-you-in-jail offense where insurance doesn't apply.

 

I'm with you, mate. I think it's important for boys and girls to experience independence. I think scoutin' is the perfect venue for doing that in a smart way. I'm willing to do that myself and encourage it in a qualified way, but only with eyes wide open, thoughtfully, and recognizing the risks. But I'm not willing to join you in belittling fellow volunteers who choose not to do it. Especially if they are in states or communities where the community mores might not view it positively, or in a unit which does not use advancement to truly recognize proficiency.

 

And I reckon that here in the U.S., unlike internationally, it's a bit more prudent to allow it for mixed age 12-17 groups with older high school leaders than it is if we follow da current BSA materials trend which emb advocates, and limit boy scouting to middle school.

 

Beavah

 

[Bob White]

I really do hate it when you write long posts Beavah. You say so many wrong and incongruous things in one post that it is difficult to respond to without having to post and even lengthier missive.

 

To be as short as possible...Nah you are wrong about a lot of it. In addition, the BSA did not put the warning labels on ladders either. The litigiousness of or our society was not caused by the BSA. Nor was the over protectiveness of the American Society.

 

Your representation of the foreign Sea Scout programs is vague and unsupported. We have as a consultant to our ship a Sea Scout Skipper from New Zealand who does not share your belief in what happens in Sea Scout program in his country.

 

You made that up based on what you believe is a more permissive less restricted society but lets admit it you have no direct knowledge of their program do you? Just as you really had no idea what International Waters meant. You guessed based on what you thought it was.

 

Another point is that just as those who say we should change the age levels simply because others do it differently but do not provide evidence that different is in any way better. Your presumption that because other countries have less safety rules so their program is better lacks any evidence to support your premise.

 

As others on this very forum have shown, there are adventure opportunities that many leaders never take advantage of, due either to choice or lack of knowledge about the BSA program and its policies.

 

There is plenty of adventure available to scouts that they are never allowed access to by the choice of the Scout leader.

 

 

By the way, the Ship crews a safety boat as part of our service to the local fleet. We rarely follow behind a boat with an all scout crew for a few reasons. 1) We follow the slowest boat, and that is rarely one with a Sea Scout youth crew aboard. 2) The most dangerous boat on the water is often the one with the most experience sailors, as they tend to operate the vessel the most aggressively. 3) Our scouts are in life jackets, few of the other racers are.

 

We not only have good sailors we have safe sailors and to think that the two are mutually exclusive would be yet another misconception.

 

You simply are too ill-informed, and too inexperienced, to address this issue reasonably.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Beavah]

Wow, BobWhite, another personal attack post? Don't you ever get tired of that? Even when folks agree with yeh by and large.

 

I've participated in international events with Sea Scouts in Britain, the Caribbean, and most of da Scandanavian/north European countries. Never in the Med or the Pacific, though I had an opportunity once in Greece. Mrs. Beavah was goin' in for minor surgery, so I had to miss it. Personally, I've been sailin' keelboats for 30+ years includin' some longer offshore stuff. Can still work a sextant pretty well. I don't do maritime law, though, that's quite a peculiar specialty. I still remember territorial waters being defined by "long cannon shot" .

 

Sea Scoutin' in the U.S. is a pretty rare bird, at least to find an active, on-the-water unit. Tried a couple times and failed when I was younger doin' unit-level work. Known a few Navy fellows who tried to find active ships different places with similar results. They always seemed to be paper units. I expect it's rarer per capita here in the U.S. than it is in any of the countries I mentioned.

 

I agree with you on how to run a proper safety boat at a regatta, and on da risks, eh? I just disagree that trailin' the slowest non-scout boat constitutes the qualified supervision that the first point of Safety Afloat envisions. Now, with JY's on a small inland lake on a fair weather day, yah, no harm.... at least until those folks who think it's important to put warning labels on ladders and who write statutes like those in Texas catch up with you. Scoutin' in da U.S. exists within the culture of the U.S.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[emb021]

"By effectively cutting off Boy Scouts at 14 (or 15, or 16) we are saying "Mission Accomplished" before the real tests of character (and the opportunities for learning) that one faces in high school. How well is that likely to pan out in the long run?"

 

Not sure where you got that idea. It's certainly not my idea that is 'mission accomplished' when the boy reaches 14 and boy scouting is 'over', and more then I think it should be viewed as 'mission accomplished' when a boy earns Eagle, or ages out of Boy Scouts at 18.

 

The idea of ending boy scouts at 14 is to get the boy to move on to the next program section. No different then when we end Cub Scouts at 10 or 11 and move them into Boy Scouts.

 

And that's part of the problem.

 

We have a clear cut transition, bridging, from Cub Scouts to Boy Scouts. But NOTHING for Boy Scouts bridge to Venturing. Or from Boy Scouts/Venturing to adult leadership.

 

Something I've seen in other programs is that they have a clear cut ceremony and award to encourage the youth to move from one section to another.

 

"In the process of making Eagle a middle school accomlishment we are diluting the Eagle Scout brand. If the damage to our flagship brand becomes irreversible, we will lose our relevance as an organization."

 

No. Its the typical mis inflation of Eagle Scout as being the 'top' and sole accomplishement of scouting, when its really not. That overlooks the fact that the Boy Scout program, including Eagle Scout, was written to the reading/ability level of middle schoolers. It overlooks the fact that Venturing & Sea Scouting (and its awards) were written to the high school level youth. Should Venturing Silver and Sea Scout Quatermaster be 'diluted' and overlooked in favor of the all mighty Eagle Scout? (or for that matter, the high awards of the past such as Explorer Scout Ranger and Air Scout Ace?)

 

Eagle Scout is important. But its importance should not be at the expense of the rest of the scouting programs.

 

 

[Eagle92]

Emb,

 

The problem is the brand name "Eagle Scout" has been around since 1910 and has a definitive meaning in our culture. grant you the Sea Scout Quartermaster has been around almost as long, I believe since 1912, but since Sea Scouts are so rare, they don't have the name recognition. Heck I lived on the gulf coast and never heard of Sea Scouts or Quartermaster until we got an adult who was one to be an ASM. Even now all I can find is 1 sea scout ship in my council, And I am on the east coast.

 

Also some Eagles, like myself, were in a period of Scouting where there was no Exploring awards like Ace, Ranger, Silver, etc. So Eagle WAS the highest award readily available. When folks try to, for lack of a better word downplay the Eagle by saying the Venturing Awards are supperior, you will get the "Hell No" response as 40+ new DEs gave the director of venturing during my PDL class.

 

not Trying to downplay any of the awards, but Eagle Scout has been in continual use since 1910, unlike all the other awards. When it appears that people are trying to downplay my and others achievement, especially when none of the other awards were available, you will get defensive.

[Bob White]

eeek, again the long posts. Gosh where to begin this time?

If you were an experienced saior and familiar with the Sea Scout program why all the nautical errors and mistatements about the program?

 

You make statements based on guesses found on whispers of information.

 

For instance you assume the Safety Boat is what we use for adult supervision, It's not. You make it sounnd as if we are racing litlle JY's, we are not. You imply that inland waters are always calm, You obviously do not have the depth of boating experience you claim.

 

An active on-water Sea Scout Ship is evidently not as rare as troops that use Patrol camping on this forum. There is no shortage of advaenture available in Scouting. It is a mystery as to so many posters would rather make excuses as to why they can't have adventure rather than take the time to learn how they can.

 

Eagle92

The Eagle Scout Rank is the goal of some scouts, it is NOT the goal of Scouting.

 

It is a fine personal accomplishment. Scouting however is filled with fine personal accomplishments, Eagle is just one of them.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Eagle92]

BW,

You are right, "It is a fine personal accomplishment." And no one is going to tell me it's 'mis inflated,' especially when at the time I earned it, there was no other awards available. Unless you found a sea explorer ship, a very rare unit to find, that used the traditional sea explorer program, which because for the shift in exploring in the 1960s was even rarer to find, and had the opportunity to earn that award, there was NOTHING but Eagle Scout. i acknowledge that Quartermaster, Silver, and Ranger are equally difficult awards to earn and I have praise for anyone who earns them. But I say bullocks to anyone who tries to denigrate Eagle Scout.

 

 

[BrentAllen]

Standing on the sidelines, getting nauseated with everyone else, it appears it is you, Bob, making all the assumptions. Beavah didn't say your unit was racing JYs, and notice he said inland on a fair day. Last time I checked, Safety Afloat applied even to Sea Scouts, which is all Beavah has been stating. And yes, I have been sailing, on inland waters in heavy winds, and in international waters.

[Eagledad]

>>And that's part of the problem. We have a clear cut transition, bridging, from Cub Scouts to Boy Scouts. But NOTHING for Boy Scouts bridge to Venturing. Or from Boy Scouts/Venturing to adult leadership.

[Bob White]

It is a vaild statement that some do misrepresent what the Eagle rank signifies. It is a terrific personal accomplishment worthy of recognition.

 

It is not the purpose or goal of scouting as some would represent it to be.

 

Currently about 5% of scouts achieve the Eagle rank. if the goal of scouting was to turn out Eagle Scouts then that would mean the program since its inception has failed over 95 percent of the time, and that simply isn't the case.

 

To make the Eagle anything other than a wonderful personal achievement would indeed be misrepresting its place and its purpose in the BSA program.