No Older Boy Scouts?

[Bob White]

Sorry Eagle 92 that just doesn't hold water. Many of the countries involved have very few or no professional staff other than a national director. They are almost all volunteer. So we are not taklking about the BSA stats, we are talking about the stats from the other countries.

 

If the alternate program levels supported by some posters is in fact "the cure" or even one of the cures, then they should be able to show acual measurenents of its benefit. To say others so it differently or proves others do it differnetly. It shows no evidence what so ever that it actually translates into a measurable difference of ANY kind.

 

To assume that different is better without being able to measure an improvement is just not good logic.

[Beavah]

Yah, I think emb's international comparison is a bit too simplistic, eh?

 

While many nations run scoutin' programs within sections, those sections are all part of one "group" (we would say "unit"), with a unit scoutmaster and unit-level assistants. Boys and girls progress from section to section more in the way that lads in our cub programs move from wolf to bear - they stay in the same "unit." Except the "dens" in the international scene are multi-year. So you'll do some full group meetings/campouts/award ceremonies from age 6-26+, with older scouts helpin' lead and teach younger, and you'll do some section meetings/campouts as webelos or scouts or ventures. But if yeh ask 'em, they'll always say they're in Group (troop) 12, not in Boy Scouts or Venturing.

 

The other thing that's very true is that scouts and ventures in most other countries are given a lot more freedom and independence to act as leaders than we ever do here in the U.S. Much less fear overseas. In fact, far from bein' the home of the Brave, a trip overseas will teach yeh that we're really the home of the Irrationally Terrified. No talk of liability, permits and the like anywhere else. Odds are a scout has keys to his troop buildin' and can go there with his buddies and just camp out some weeknight with no adults around - fires and swimming included. High school aged youth like as not can take out a motorboat or sailboat in international waters on their own, with younger scouts aboard. There's a lot of interaction and mentoring across ages within and between "sections," and youth are trusted as leaders.

 

Would (and does) make our G2SS and liability mavens nuts, eh? But yeh really can't equate us with them on age grouping without considerin' all the other differences.

 

Beavah

 

[emb021]

"Many of the countries involved have very few or no professional staff other than a national director. They are almost all volunteer. So we are not taklking about the BSA stats, we are talking about the stats from the other countries."

 

You have to take a look at the whole picture to get a good idea of what's going on in that countries program.

 

For instance, when at the World Jamboree visiting the Philippines scout booth, I was talking a look at a poster they had listing their membership numbers over the years. They should very high numbers until one year (sometime in the 90s I think), they suddenly droped by a HUGH percentage. (loosing 2/3rds or so). I asked 'what happened'? Well, what happened is that up to that point, membership in Scoutings almost manditory in most schools. In that year, that changed, with scouting being optional. So the hugh number dropped.

 

As pointed out, the BSA has a larger professional staff. In other countries, they look a bit askance at that, but we do have a larger membership. Is that the result of it? But there are other differences, such as the demographics of our adult volunteers, etc. You can't just pick one thing and say that's the cause of higher/lower numbers. I think there are a lot of factors (promotion, program, etc)

 

 

 

[Bob White]

Yah Beavah sounds like more guess work and no facts.

 

"High school aged youth like as not can take out a motorboat or sailboat in international waters on their own, with younger scouts aboard."

International waters begin 12 nautical miles off of the coast of a country. Would you please identify what country's scouting program has as a program element the ability of high school aged scouts to take other scouts over 12 miles from shore into the ocean on a sail boat or motor boat.

 

Thanks.

 

emb01

Nothing you posted has any bearing on your position that because other countries have different age levels it works better.

 

You did provide evidence that government mandated membership is used by some countries and yields greater membership numbers. Would that not be an expected result?

 

Why then are you not advocating we do that since others do it? If what others do is your criteria for what we should do, what is your criteria on what we should copy and what we should not?

[Eagle92]

BW,

I sent you a PM on the stats situation. TRUST ME on this one.

[BadenP]

All BW and others would have to do is look at the handbooks from other countries to see the differences that Beavah and emb21 pointed out, they do treat the scouts in many other countries with a lot more freedom and maturity in a lot of activities that would violate GSS in this country, firearms, water sports unsupervised by adult leaders, boy led high adventure treks to name just a few.

[Bob White]

Eagle92 I have responded to you by PM, and please...trust ME on this one.

[Kudu]

"The mistake that the BSA has made for decades is to extend the boy scout program pass the age of 14."

 

Of course the Boy Scout program was not "extended" past the age of 14, what happened decades ago was that the outdoor adventure of William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt's "Real Patrols" was replaced by the abstract theory of Leadership Development.

 

The goal of Patrol Leader Training (the crown jewel of Green Bar Bill's Patrol Method) had been to teach Patrol Leaders how to plan and lead Patrol Hikes and Patrol Overnights without adults hovering nearby.

 

Hillcourt's Patrol Leader Training (designed for the Patrol's most gifted natural leader), was replaced by Bela Banathy's White Stag "Junior Leader Training" which traded Patrol Hikes and Patrol Overnights for 11 mental theories including "Controlling Group Performance" and "Understanding the Characteristics and Needs of the Group and Its Members."

 

The term "Patrol Method" was redefined away from independent Patrol Hikes and Patrol Campouts to a Leadership Development version in which six-month "POR" popularity contest winners learned to "Control Group Performance" and "Understand the Characteristics and Needs of the Group and Its Members" under the close supervision of adults. What fun!

 

The definition of "Patrol Method" has been corrupted to the point that now in the 21st century Scoutmaster "specific training" does not even MENTION Patrol Leaders in the Patrol Method session!

 

Adult supervised High Adventure has become an alternative to the adventure that Hillcourt's Patrol Method offered before Banathy, but it is an optional activity. Any indoor boy can earn Eagle Scout without ever walking into the woods with a pack on his back. If an older boy belongs to a Troop that peddles the "Mission Statement" rather than High Adventure, then the only reason to endure Scout school is because your parents want you to add Eagle Scout to your resume.

 

"Ages 6-10, the 'cub section'

Ages 11-14, the 'scout section'

Ages 15-18, the 'senior section'

Ages 18-25, the 'rover section' "

 

Note that Baden-Powell did NOT divide Boy Scouts into two sections. In his model of Scouting the Scout Section ended at age 18, and Rovers had NO upper age limit. The highest award in Scouting is not the Scout Section "King's Scout," but the "Baden-Powell Award" earned in Rovers. This extended outdoor adventure program encouraged boys to remain in Scouting as adults even if they did not want to serve as Scouters.

 

The invention of the "Senior Scout Section" came after Baden-Powell (see the actual revision, below). This post-Baden-Powell "Section" could be the traditional individual Senior Scouts in a Boy Scout Section, a Patrol within a Boy Scout Troop (hence the term "Senior Patrol Leader" referred to the Patrol Leader of the Senior Patrol, not to the "Troop Leader"), or it could be a separate Troop within the Group.

 

Between Baden-Powell's era and the 1966 Advance Party Report, the PO&R guidelines read:

 

88. To become a Scout, the youth must have attained the age of 11, but not have reached his 18th birthday.

 

A). In an individual case a youth may become a Scout before the age of 11 provided that it is not more than 6 months before the 11th birthday. The SM and GSM must agree that this is justified due to physical development or other circumstances. If the youth is already a TimberWolf, the TWM must also agree.

 

B). A Scout on reaching his 15th birthday may move to the Senior Scout Patrol or Troop. The candidate for Senior Scouts must have achieved a minimum level of 2nd Class Scout before being elevated to Senior Scouts.

 

C). In a Group which has no separate Senior Troop or Patrol, a Scout who has attained the age of 15 but has not reached his 18 birthday, and who has attained the level of 2nd Class Scout, may elect to become a Senior Scout while still remaining in the Scout Troop.

 

Bob White writes:

 

"Would you please identify what country's scouting program has as a program element the ability of high school aged scouts to take other scouts over 12 miles from shore into the ocean on a sail boat or motor boat."

 

Um, the entire British Empire:

 

Senior Coxswain Proficiency Badge: 6. Organise and take charge of a Patrol expedition of 48 hours minimum duration in a sailing boat or motor cruiser. Journey to a point at least 16 Kms from the start and return. Keep a detailed log showing courses and distances. Route to be prepared by the candidate with proper reference to tides etc. Members of the Patrol to be properly organised as a boats crew.

 

Other Required Expeditions unaccompanied by adults include:

 

Venturer: 4. Make a journey of at least 32km (20 miles). on foot or by boat, with not more than 2 other Scouts. Route must be one with which the Scout is not familiar and should, if possible, include stiff country. Sleep out, using only the gear carried in a rucksack.

 

Senior Explorer: An expedition by water will cover at least 50 miles and the log will cover such points as the state of the river, conditions of banks, obstructions to navigation etc. An expedition on Horseback will cover at least 120 miles in wild country, camping at 3 different camp sites. An expedition, whether on foot or otherwise, must be a test of determination, courage, physical endurance and a high degree of co-operation among those taking part.

 

Ernest Thompson Seton's Degrees in Woodcraft (upon which Baden-Powell's Proficiency Badge system was based) included:

 

Seamanship: 14. Sail a two-man boat for 100 miles without a professional sailor for companion, but yourself holding the tiller and directing its sail adjustment, etc.

 

Traveler: 2. Travel 500 miles on foot, by bicycle, by canoe, or in saddle, camping out.(This message has been edited by Kudu)

[hot_foot_eagle]

By effectively cutting off Boy Scouts at 14 (or 15, or 16) we are saying "Mission Accomplished" before the real tests of character (and the opportunities for learning) that one faces in high school. How well is that likely to pan out in the long run?

 

In the process of making Eagle a middle school accomlishment we are diluting the Eagle Scout brand. If the damage to our flagship brand becomes irreversible, we will lose our relevance as an organization.

 

 

[Bob White]

Geez Kudu! Use a little common sense here. The requirements don't say to sail those distances perpendicular to the coastline straight out to sea!

 

Heck there are Sea Scouts in the BSA who sail vessels further than that with an all youth crew all the time. Just not out into international waters.

 

There's a BSA Sea Scout requirement for a long cruise of 14 days. It doesn't mean to travel perpendicular to the coast line for two weeks! That would be insane for any youth program to authorize in any country.

 

Good grief how can possibly think that is what those requirements meant?

 

This is where so many of your arguments "jump the shark", you think you know a program from reading a passage in a book. But you have no training or experience in the actual program.

 

 

 

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Eagle92]

From my limited experience working at two international scout campsites in the UK, programs vary greatly. I know of a Belgian group of scouts who were supposed to go on a bike tour of England with only two leaders, both of whom aged out of the program. unfotunately the follow up van broke down and they stayedif memory serves Duke of Edinburgh (sp) Award (DofE) that the UK offers requires scouts to go it alone with out adults. Don't know about the Irish Explorer Belt Award, but beleive a similar requirement exists. I worked with three Finns, ages 16, 17, and 18. The 16 YO came over to the UK by herself. the 17 and 18 YOs were brothers, so they came together. But still all three cam unaccompanied by adults.

 

It's been my experience that fewer rules and regs exist in other countries compared to the BSA. YPT, SSD`,safety afloat, etc don't exist as people are expected tp use common sense. Scouts do act more independently, and my favorite quote comes from a patch that shows a leader with hands in pockets shrugging and says " don't ask me I'm only a leader."

 

 

 

 

[Eagle92]

I've been thinking about this issue, and I think it's come done to two things 1)the dumbing down of our education system and 2) the fear of lawsuits.

 

Let's face if you compare books from 40 or 50 years ago, they were written at a higher level. Just read an old Fieldbook, or Sea Scout manual and compare them to today's. While not as dumbed down as some things they still have been affected. Heck it's been mentioned that in the 1970s national deliberately dumbed down the program to #1 get more youth involved and 2) make Eagle a 13-14 year old award.

 

Also look at curricula from the 50s and 60s and compare the same grade level and you will notice it as well. Some if this is due to educational theories and what not. Heck one school of thought states that you are not truly an adult until around age 25 because your brain is still developing, I personally think that a bunch of bullkicky, and an insult, especially to our men and women serving in the military who are in the 18-15 bracket. It's proven fact that if you have high expectations, folks will do their best to meet them. But it seems that standards are falling. Just look at Philadelphia which has just decreed that no one will receive a grade lower than a 50 since it hurts self esteem.

 

So if you lower expectations, boys will not perform and get bored.

 

In reference to lawsuits, why do you think the G2SS came about. I remember as a scout in the 80s building 30' pioneering towers as well as having a 20' tripod and 10' tripod with a line attached to them for a bosun's chair event at scout show. We used common sense and had no accidents. Cubbies loved it and we had people waiting inline all day. for the ride. Nowadays you can't have anything over 6' i bleive without having a COPE director certify it. I remember taking my patrol for a hike early in my scout career and having no problem. A few years later, I tried to do the same thing, and I needed an adult to accompany the patrol for insurance reasons I was told.

 

I personally believe that if a unit is having trouble with older scouts, SPL and SM should sit down with them, assign them some duties with clear objectives and responsibilities. Give them full authority to do what they need, within reason of course. Since they would then be troop leaders, have them comeup with ideas to do separate activities at a few troop functions throughout the year.

 

Ok my $.02 worth

[local1400]

I agree with alot of what Eagle92 has posted. As to Beavah's original post I have personally thought the Boy Scout program has been too Cubbish for too long. As a Scout, we did things that I thought were for adults (building and climbing up a 20 foot tower, for example). Today I see kids who think lashing is too hard. I have noticed that summer camp programs have been watered down. Even todays Scouting songs to me are aimed at 10 year olds and under. Give the older boys a program designed for their age and they will stay.

[Beavah]

Yah, BW, I concede, eh? I misspoke. Not "international waters" as in the legal definition of high seas. International waters as in open waters across national boundaries. Like sailin' into Canadian waters on the Great Lakes. The latter is fairly common for scouts on their own in any of the Scandinavian / Northern European countries, eh? Also not unusual for sea scouts in those nations to start at cub scout age in sunfish-sized boats in sheltered coastal waters with no adults aboard.

 

More to the point of the recent discussion, most international scouters would be somewhere between shocked and horrified at our bureaucratic/G2SS entanglements. Maybe with few to no professionals, there's nobody who has the time to generate lots of paperwork and regulation. Maybe with a more rational, less fearful culture there doesn't seem to be a need. Maybe with a more rational civil court system or socialized medical care there really isn't a need.

 

Point is, it's just very hard to compare and say that makin' a hard age 14 split in program is the best thing because a more gentle split exists in international scoutin'. International scoutin' is just way too different in so many ways to make that sort of direct comparison. Heck, in many if not most nations, scouting and other private youth programs receive direct governmental financial support from da education ministries. I bet we'd all love to get an annual stipend from Uncle Sam to support each of our units!

 

Beavah

 

[Bob White]

"Like sailin' into Canadian waters on the Great Lakes."

 

Any restrictions of that are controlled by federal laws more so those of the BSA. The BSA would require only a float plan and National tour permit. The Laws of the US. and Canadada require much more.

 

I really do not think you have enough information on boating or on the Sea Sea Scout program to comment accuarately on what they can or cannot do.

 

Let's remmebr that it is the BSA program that allows Patrols to camp on their own without adults, and yet we have already shown the vast number of posters on this forum alone who not only have never done this, but even after years of experience in the BSA did not know it was part of the program, despite it being explained in Basic training and numerous BSA resources including the Handbook for many years.

 

The problem is not the program. The problem it appears is the selction of adult leadership in some units.

 

In the Sea Scout Ship I serve we have boats racing every weekend of the sailing season with all scout crews that race several nautical miles, and not in a Sunfish or a Snark but in 22ft long Olympic Class sail boats and day cruisers.

 

The Scouting Program has never lacked adventure. It just has occassional pockets of boring adult leadership. The adventure is waiting out there for anyone with the skills to particpate. If the scouts in a troop lack the skills, then who is responsible for that condition???

 

Could it be....the Scoutmaster?