Not in any way trying to be sexist -Just wondering?

[Eamonn]

As most of you fellow forum members know I'm a man.

Back when I was a little Lad in the UK all the Scout Leaders were men, most all of the Cub Scout Leaders were also men.

Even today in the Council I serve we don't have a female Scoutmaster. There are a few female ASM's.

 

I work in a mostly male environment.

All the inmates in the State Correctional facility are male!

We do have a handful of female Corrections Officers, a few female nurses and I have two female Instructors in my department.

Both are very different. One is a young Lady with small children the other is a Grandmother.

From what I observe the inmates do seem to go out of their way to be a little bit nicer and a little bit better behaved when working with /for these ladies.

Sure we do have the odd inmate twit who will make the odd nasty comment. (Both of these Ladies are very able to manage that sort of situation!! I for one would never mess with them!!)

I'm just wondering do Scouts behave better for a female leader?

What challenges do female leaders feel that they face that male leaders don't?

I do not have a problem with us having female leaders.

This thread is not about if we should or shouldn't have female leaders. Please let's not go there!

EAMONN.

[IM_Kathy]

as a female leader I don't see much difference in the way the boys are with me compared to the male leaders. The only difference I see is that in our troop we have the "Geezer Patrol" in that the adults do their own meal and when one of the ladies is the cook the leaders eat better than when a male leader does the cooking and so we tend to be asked to cook more often. Of course the key to not be to a cook is just mess up once - we have a couple of leaders that have only been asked once LOL

 

sometimes until a boy sees a woman do something won't believe they can do it or is knowledgable in what we say... it's like until they see you light a fire, use a compass, use an axe, etc, they think it's just for men to do it. so it's important for the boys to see ya in action.

 

one disadvantage I have is that when we winter camp I'm usually the only female who goes and so I have no one to share a tent with and thereby no one to help keeping it warm (as many people in a tent as possible really helps it be warmer)

 

the only disadvantage some of the other women have is when we go hiking into "no kybo" areas... me? I have a handy little funnel deal so I can go standing up (I have bad knee so squatting is out of the question) I have also learned to keep it handy when on long drives when the boys will ask to be let out in the middle of no where.

[gwd-scouter]

My husband has commented a time or two that the boys in our Troop try harder to please or impress me than any other leader. I say it is simply because I am the Scoutmaster. He says it is because the boys know I expect more out of them.

 

Many years ago I was the Troop Advancement Chair. I went on a few campouts with the guys and received very little respect from either the boys or the adults. I was called the Troop Mom. Perhaps it was because at that time the boys (and adults) saw me more as a mom than a scouter. Remembering that time, it was important to me when I became Scoutmaster to foster a different image in the boys' minds. It was tough in the beginning, especially with the older or what I called 'legacy' scouts. I never did win them over or gain their respect. Sure, they did what I asked, but they never bought into our move to a boy-led troop. It wasn't until those legacy scouts aged out and I had gained some experience as a Scoutmaster that I began to see the road ahead and what our troop could be.

 

Looking back, my effort to dispel the boys' idea that I was somehow the Troop Mom was actually the biggest mistake I made. I thought it was important to be a Scoutmaster like my male counterparts. I thought then that what made a good Scoutmaster was being an outdoors expert, a tough guy, a manly man. After all, I was modeling the Scoutmasters I knew. Boy was I wrong! After I went to summer camp and stayed the full week for the first time as SM and met and watched other Scoutmasters, I began to see what I was doing wrong.

 

I had to go with MY strengths. I had to be myself. I am a Mom, a parent, trying to raise two sons with the best foundation to enter adulthood. Aren't those the same things we try to do with Boy Scouts? Of course. Duh! So, it was with the same high expectations and rules of the road with which I raise my sons that I became the Scoutmaster our troop deserved.

 

I am the quiet Scoutmaster. I observe. "How did you know that?" is a question I hear the most from our scouts. I have talks with a guy when needed. I do not lecture any more. Instead I ask questions. The guys used to refer to those lectures as Scoutmaster moments, as opposed to Scoutmaster minutes. The minutes were good, the moments were bad. Now I just have teaching opportunities. Much better.

 

To Eamonn's question about the challenges female leaders face that males do not. As IM_Kathy posted, campouts can present a few. The biggest challenge is overcoming the short-sightedness of some folks that a female just can't be a good leader. When a man steps up to be a SM or ASM, he is accepted immediately, no questions, no need to prove himself, welcome to the brotherhood. At least, that has been my observations. The mistake I made early on was thinking I had to prove myself by being just like them and that was never going to work.

 

A few months ago I received a marvelous compliment. We were at our District Camporee and the OA chapter made a pancake breakfast on Sunday morning. The line was long, so I helped to pour juice with one of the adult OA advisors. He was one of those men early on that felt females had no business being Scoutmasters. We were talking about the OA and he said "you should be inducted." I was stunned. I said I had already infiltrated the mens' ranks and should leave the OA to the guys. I don't remember his words exactly, but he said essentially that I was not a typical woman and was doing a great job with our Troop. High praise from a former skeptic.

 

Are the boys better behaved because I am a woman? I don't think so. We have both male and female ASMs. I don't see any difference in boys' behavior around them.

 

They are better behaved because they know my expectation is that we live by the Scout Oath and the Scout Law. They are better behaved because I am the Scoutmaster.

[Eamonn]

gwd-scouter

Thanks for being so nice and polite!

I do feel that I'm on the receiving end of a much needed and well deserved smack across the back of the head!

Again looking at the people I work with, I see that they are a very diverse group. Diverse in age, ethnic background, color, race -you name it!

We have some really outstanding white and black instructors along with some not so great white and black instructors. With this in mind; it was wrong of me to suppose that female SM's would be any different.

Good leaders are good leaders because they are good leaders.

Please accept my apology if I in any way inferred that being a female leader played a role in this.

I'm very happy being me!!

I'm a long way from ever coming off as some kind of "Super Scout" Or Hero!!

I'm OK telling everyone what I enjoy and don't enjoy. I'm slowly beginning to accept that I'm at an age where trying to keep up with a group of teenagers is at times difficult and at other times down right silly! I know that I can't leap large mountains and accept that at times even hiking up small hills takes its toll.

The Scouts are aware of this, they accept this. So while I'm no longer "One of the boys", no longer able to muster the Troop (Ship) and do a 50 mile hike before breakfast! I'm still there for them. At times they do come to me for what might be called the wisdom of the ages?? Or maybe it's just the point of view from someone who is older? Then again maybe it's just because I'm able to find and make the time to listen to them? Lord knows I have never felt that I was endowed with any great wisdom.

While maybe some female leaders do feel (Rightly or wrongly.) That some male Leaders and some Scouts do harbor some kind of prejudice. I do feel that the BSA has in a fairly short time done a good job of welcoming and accepting female leadership.

Kathy,

Other than you recruiting a few more female leaders, I can't come up with a answer that would be acceptable to the BSA and most parents for your cold tent situation. If it's any consolation Her Who Must Be Obeyed is forever complaining how cold I am and that I have the coldest feet! But again we are not going to go there.

Eamonn

 

[gwd-scouter]

Eamonn, no apology is necessary since my response was not meant in any way to be a criticism of your question. Your post was spun from my thread bragging about our Troop, so I took it as a valid query about the boys' response to female leadership. Frankly, I am always happy to answer such questions. I've asked myself similar questions over the years.

[Eamonn]

I thought that maybe I'd come off in some way as being unfair to our female leaders.

Of course that was never my intention.

 

While we don't have any female SM'S in our Council. I did push for the person who came after me as Wood Badge Course Director to be a female.

I was really happy when she was selected and overjoyed when she did a far better job than I had done! (OK, She had benefited from working with me!!)

She now serves as our Council Vice-President for Program.

Looking back at her selection, I don't think anyone even made mention of the fact that she was a woman.

Eamonn.

[Eagle92]

Just as with any male leader, you get the good with the bad. On the volunteer side, 90% of the time the women do a great job. And usually the 10% are either A) new BS leaders just coming up from CS and need to be trained on the differences between CS and BS or B) Don't want training and don't care. Luckily I've had only 1 female leader in the B category. As mentioned already in the past, female leaders were viewed with skepticism and had to prove their mettle. Now they are just part of the propgram and the challenges are just as if they were male.

 

Again the biggest challenge I've had with female leaders is the same challenge I've had with some male eladers: they are use to CS and have some challenges making the transition to BS. Good training 99.9% of the time solves this matter.

 

On another note female pros is a different story. it's an even 50/50 in my experience . Those with sometype of Exploring/Venturing experience as a youth, or who have been volunteers and are making Scouting their second career are 99.9999999% GREAT. And they have been known to outperform their male peers. As one female DE joked "recruiting dads to be leaders is no problem for me."

 

The ones who have had no experience with Scouting prior to the job, have been "challenging." They don't truly understand the program, and tend to view Scouting as just another job IMHO. Then I again I've encountered problems with this type of DE before, as well as friends workig in other council's. Let's just say I inherited a few "challenging" units from a female Exploring pro back in the day.

[Eamonn]

Eagle92,

Much as I hate to generalize. It has been my experience that the worst DE's are young men who are Eagle Scouts.

They seem to want to not be able to make the transition.

But maybe I'm being unfair?

Ea

 

[Xtreme]

I think that some of the challenges of women is them getting viewed different then the men. Not in all cases of course. But more than often they have to work harder to prove to everyone that they can do the same stuff that the guys can do. They are often viewed as not knowing as much or not capable. But obviously women have proved that wrong. In general, I think sometimes they just have to work harder to show what they can bring to the table. By normally, they get the same respect as the adult male leaders do.

[DeanRx]

I might get a few negative replies for this, but I've never been one to be PC...

 

I think it has very little to do with the GENDER of the leader.

 

It has to do with 4 things:

 

1) Does the leader present themselves as such? Do they have a "command presence"? Anyone that ever has to tell someone else that they are in charge, most certainly is NOT in charge.

 

2) Are they prepared? If a leader comes off as not ready for the challenge of the day, or ill prepared to lead the event - kids (just like soldiers) will eat them alive. I see this happen a lot w/ adult leaders who think they can just "wing it".

 

3) Do they foster trust from those in their charge? Are they firm yet approachable? Can a scout trust them enough to be open about things that might be a dicey subject. Scouts will open up only if you are willing to be a confidant and offer appropriate responses / guidance. One mis-step in this area can shut down a leaders ability to influence. Do you inspire others to achieve beyond what they themselves think they are capable of?

 

4) Be a lifelong learner. Are you willing to learn? Can you admit when you don't know and conceed to someone w/ more expirience in the matter at hand? Are you willing to be trained in the doctrine of the organization? Are you willing to accept the policies / procedures within the organization and uphold them even if you disagree with them? Will you only work within the organization to change the things you disagree with?

 

I've been around and seen good and bad leadership from both genders, in the Army, a WHOLE lot in the business world, and most certainly in the scouting arena.

 

It has very little to do with gender - it has to do with mindset / preparation / execution. Do those things well - people will BEG to follow you.

 

DeanRx(This message has been edited by DeanRx)(This message has been edited by DeanRx)

[Xtreme]

I think DeanRx makes an excellent point! I agree with that completely. I do think that in SOME cases gender does possibly play a role. But I think that it depends on the troop itself and how the people in it view the role of women. In most cases, the issue is their leadership only. But in others, they do possibly have to work a little harder just to show that they have the same leadership quality and skills to offer.

[DeanRx]

Thanks for the compliment Xtreme.

[Sarge]

Of the 5 dens in my cub pack, 2 of them are led by women.

In general, those 2 dens are the best behaved and most productive.

Even though I have only been involved with this pack for a few months, I have no doubt in these ladies leadership abilities or ability to command respect.

It's more about presence than gender.