New ASMs: When are they "official"?

[Frank17]

Some background: I was an ASM of our Troop for 3 years, recently taken over SM position. When I became an ASM, I had been a Den Leader previously, so I already had the health and safety training needed. I simply registered with the Troop and took the Fast Start and SM specific (indoor & outdoor) training the next month. I was now an ASM, and could sign off on books, lead trips, etc.

 

Now when I joined, we had three other ASMs that had not finished their training (all they had taken was YPT). They were listed on our Troop Directory as "Assistant Scoutmasters in-training". Now, three years later, one of them has finished his training and is registered as an ASM, the other 2 are still "in-training".

 

My question is, since only SMs and ASMs are allowed to sign off on requirements and do other Troop actions, when do other Troops consider ASMs to be functional? When they first express interest in becoming ASMs? When they fill out an application? When they complete all training required by BSA?

 

I will hold my opinion for now until I see what others suggest.

[John-in-KC]

You're an ASM when your approved app is loaded into ScoutNet and you get your BSA membership card back.

 

Now, is a Scouter trained (FS, YP, NLE, SM Specific, OLS)?? What about MBC training? When will the Scouter take WB?

 

If I were SM the scope and depth of an ASM's portfolio would increase with his training and his field experience.

 

One final comment: SM should empower youth to do most of signing for T-2-1, given that the youth themselves really understand "what right looks like."

 

 

[CNYScouter]

Your Troop may do things different but there is no official position of Assistant Scoutmaster in-training in the BSA.

 

My question is, since only SMs and ASMs are allowed to sign off on requirements and do other Troop actions, when do other Troops consider ASMs to be functional?

 

SMs and ASMs are not the only one allowed to sign off requirements. The SM can designate anyone they feel qualified. I agree that an SM should empower youth to do most of the signing of requirements for T-2-1.

 

When they first express interest in becoming ASMs? When they fill out an application?

 

As John-in-KC said you are an ASM when your approved app is loaded into ScoutNet.

I am not sure you even have to wait until you have your BSA membership card back to be considered registered in a position.

 

When they complete all training required by BSA?

 

Again requirements can be set by a Troop or CO to become a SM/ASM (or any position) but the BSA currently has no required training for any position.

 

[Buffalo Skipper]

I would consider an ASM to be "trained" (e.g. wear the trained strip) when they have completed Boy Scout Faststart, Youth Protection (YPT), New Leader Essentials, Scoutmaster and ASM Leader Training, and Outdoor Leader Skills.

 

Additionally, before they participate in any outing, I would strongly encourage them to complete the Weather Hazards course, and before a swim/boating outing complete the Safe Swim Defense and Safety Afloat. These courses (as well as Faststart and YPT) are available online, though some councils/districts still may deliver this material in a classroom setting (except for Weather Hazards, which is only online, as far as I know).

 

Wood Badge is an advanced course, and not required. Personally (and others here may disagree), I would encourage an ASM to attend Wood Badge within two years.

[emb021]

"I would consider an ASM to be "trained" (e.g. wear the trained strip) when they have completed Boy Scout Faststart, Youth Protection (YPT), New Leader Essentials, Scoutmaster and ASM Leader Training, and Outdoor Leader Skills."

 

Actually, that's when National considers them "trained" as well.

 

 

I agree on when they should take WB. Too often people are rushed into going to it, when they should have a little experience. Within 2 years is a good recommendation.

 

[CNYScouter]

YPT is not required to for an SM/ASM to wear the "Trained" Patch.

per www.scouting.org:

 

Scoutmasters and assistant Scoutmasters are considered trained when they have completed New Leader Essentials, Scoutmaster and Assistant Scoutmaster Leader Specific Training, and Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills

 

http://www.scouting.org/BoyScouts/NewLeaderTraining.aspx(This message has been edited by CNYScouter)

[scoutldr]

I would say you are "official" as soon as your check clears. Seriously...we had a problem in this council with people holding apps (and checks) in their briefcases until next recharter or "when they got around to it". We had it drilled into our heads that new apps need to go the COuncil office ASAP (like the same week) so that people are actually registered and covered by insurance. This is even more critical now that background checks are being done. No leader should have "direct contact" with youth until Council clears the application. Any additional requirements about signing books and stuff are unit-imposed.

[Buffalo Skipper]

Not to battle semantics, but YPT is to be completed before a leader is allowed to interact with youth. I would hardly consider an ASM, a youth interactive leader, "trained" if he was not allowed to work with youth.

 

[Crew21_Adv]

Frank17 and Fellow Scouters,

 

 

You asked to different major questions....

 

When are they official?

Concur with John in KC. When the application is accepted at council.

 

When do other Troops consider ASMs to be functional?

That could vary, from when they walk in the door to when they have complete all the recommended basic training items.

 

My fellow ASM's come into our troop with various experiences. Some are Eagles, some have spent years in Cub Scouting with a few sons, some just signed up for the first time with their son. Our fellow ASM's within my troop are official and functioning when we receive their application. They don't run to take charge. They understand our SM/ASM corps is similar to our Troop Committee. We all come together for similar goals, we may bring different avenues to get to the same destination, but we will work together to find the best mutual trail. So while our newest ASMs are official and trusted, they themselves are usually conservative and discuss plans with the PLC and SM first. Again, my Troop considers them official after receiving their application, but we urge them to complete the training as soon as they may.

 

 

Good discussion about if YPT is a required training to earn the trained strip. I've been told that quiet often, but never seen it in writing online or in BSA literature (similarly, I never seen the a YPT "2 year" expiration until a fellow Scouter showed it to me on the recent OLC version). I have been told that the percentage of trained leaders to earn the centennial quality unit award, counts YPT in with the Fast Start, NLE and Specifics.

 

Trained Leader emblem, No. 00280, is available for all leaders who have completed the basic training program appropriate to their positions. It is below the Cub Scout menu and Cub Scout training portion of the Scouting.org site, but it is not stated below the Boy Scout menus. On occasion, some information on the Scouting.org website has been in conflict with itself or obsolete from another portion of the same website. Probably it has been overlooked by the previous Boy Scout Division. Here is where the YPT is required for Cub Scout Leaders. http://www.scouting.org/CubScouts/Leaders/Training.aspx

 

All registered Cub Scout leaders must now complete the following four training courses to earn the Trained Leader emblem:

 

* Fast Start Training for their position (online or instructor-led)

* Youth Protection Training (online or instructor-led)

* Cub Scout Leader Specific Training (for their position, instructor-led)

* New Leader Essentials (instructor-led)

 

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21_Adv

[Bob White]

Frank,

I am not sure what was shared with you in training, but to set the record straight, only the Scoutmaster approves who can sign for advancement and which they can sign for. Simply being an ASM does not give one the authority to sign for advancement.

 

As mentioned before but worth repeating. A person is officially an ASM when their application is approved and processed.

 

There is no officially designation of ASM in-Training

 

To be considered a Trained Leader one has to meet the "trained" requirements set by the BSA for that position.

[Frank17]

Thanks all for the advice. It jives with what I thought was correct: that once you are registered, you hold the position. I do not know why or how our Troop came up with the "Assistant Scoutmasters in-training" label; I just know I do not like it. It is very confusing for the scouts and parents. I would prefer they be labeled as ASMs or, if they do not want to pursue training, be labeled as Committee members (which is how they function now). That would still leave us with 5 ASMs and the SPL, and ASPLs to approve / review requirements. We too allow our senior scout leaders to approve TF-2-1 requirements, but as they are not always available for every outing, our ASMs also sign-off. They are the only adults allow to do so (I did not clarify this in my original post).

[Beavah]

Yah, Frank17, listen to the BobWhite.

 

The SM determines who can sign off on requirements, eh? So it's perfectly reasonable to allow only a fully trained ASM to do that. In fact, that makes a lot of sense, since part of the purpose of OLS is to train leaders in teachin' those skills.

 

When a troop determines an adult leader is "functional" is up to the troop, eh? Generally speakin', the best troops take their time and use people according to their training and skills. In the beginning it's always best to supervise new folks and see how well they interact with kids, whether they show good judgment, etc.

 

Can't say I care about the label one way or the other. Not sure why it would matter, or why it would be confusing. Is there something else goin' on here you're not sharing?

 

What I would disagree with is the notion that anybody should just be shoved into a committee position. Committee members shouldn't be warm bodies either; they should be chosen for their skills and commitment just like direct-contact leaders.

 

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Frank17]

Beavah: The problem in the past has come from some parents (who are also committee members) who have complained that these in-training ASMs are not allowed to sign off on the books, as they have not completed their training. As it is not an "official" position, their feeling is that they cannot approve of the requirements. The reality is that these parents have friction between them that is outside of scouting that they are bringing in to the Troop. No one is questioning that the scout completed the requirement; only whose initials are on the sign-off page. Ridiculous.

 

Rather than continue the argument during my tenure as SM, I would rather eliminate the position as I am not sure where the "in-training" designation came from in the first place. I am happy with my ASMs and want to make sure they are recognized for their time spent, and do not have to spend time arguing a title. This was the reason for my original question.

[Bob White]

When you think about it Frank we are all, always, in-training. It's just that some have completed taking basic training, and some have not.

 

Another point to consider is that being trained does not always mean you know more about the program or that you are a better leader, it just means you have been to the classes.

 

When you, as the Scoutmaster, determines who can approve the various elements of advancement don't put as much stock in who wears a trained patch as you do in who understands the program, or who understands the skills and how to test them.

 

The trained patch is a recognition for the person who completed the requirements, don't assume it always means they know the program. Make you decisions based on the skills and abilities of the individual not on the patches he or she wears.

 

As far as the committee, it's not their job to determine who can sign off on advancements. Perhaps they need to be more concerned about getting trained themselves.

 

I hope you have a great time as Scoputmaster, it can be an extremely rewarding as well as challenging, and remember you are always in-training.

 

 

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[nldscout]

Buffalo Skipper,

 

I am never heard this rule.

 

"Not to battle semantics, but YPT is to be completed before a leader is allowed to interact with youth. I would hardly consider an ASM, a youth interactive leader, "trained" if he was not allowed to work with youth. "

 

Care to share where it came from?