Lem is dead, baby.

[Lem]

I guess it is my own personal thing then. I just like standards. I think that kids these days are not taught enough how to respond appropriately to adults because our culture is pretty confused about what is appropriate. The idea of authority has been changed since the sixties. The natural authority I believe that should be reflected in cultural norms of speech and behavior and station are going away- and this is troubling because I believe it is un-natural and upsetting to a positive and pedagogically fertile culture. There is and was a correspondence between language and customs and natural order. God is above man. The teacher is above the student. The parent is Lord of the house. These authorities stem from nature and are reflected in the Christian and Judaic traditions and probably Buddhism and every -other tradition.

 

I think some of the scouters embrace of a relativistic out-look on cultural norms is always going to be to our culture's detriment because BSA should, I think, be trying to buttress a conservative and traditional cultural perspective that emphasizes the best traditions and habits in human conduct. (So we grow and progress as a culture by adding what is best about the new while preserving what is best about the old).

 

The scout laws, if they are to be influential, need a system of authority to back them up. Pretending that this system is the people's choice is stupid because natural order does not flow from just a democratic source. The populous expects its elites and learned classes to share with them the knowledge of the past- this includes the best ways and attitudes of mind and outlook that have been in evidence in recorded history. (Then they can best make up their own mind about what it is right conduct.)To just tolerate the behavior of the NOW as the accepted custom and normalize and thus justify it is bordering on reprobate.

 

BSA was supposed to serve as a curative power in society by adult mentoring and published guides (by moral and competent adult leaders) and a standardized code of conduct. They didnt say- just make up your own code- did they?

But you go ahead and let the long haired mumbling inarticulate kid feel ok about that. That seems to be todays accepted model of youth.

 

Jeff

(This message has been edited by Lem)

[Narraticong]

I don't have any long haired inarticulate youth in my troop, but thanks for the advice just in case I ever do. On the other hand, I do have a long haired, very articulate youth who will earn his Eagle within the next several months. When not in uniform he even wears those jeans that sag half way down his butt. He plays in a rock band! He is an "all A's" high school senior enrolled in an advanced high school program. He already has many college credits. He is a piano virtuoso and teaches my son piano and music theory. He comes from a Christian family and regularly goes to church. For his Eagle project he accomplished the painting of a run down soup kitchen in the heart of Detroit. Every time he sees me he says "Hello Mr. Ken" and shakes my hand. He will have a free ride to any college he chooses.

 

I could not ask for a better Junior Leader. Most of my boys are 12 or 13 years old. He is 17. He is like the Pied Piper. The boys flock to him and listen intently to every word.

 

Don't know if he has any tatoos and I don't see any piercings. Don't really care.

 

But LEM, I bet you could whip that boy into shape. But I don't think you are up to his standards. You see, we still have not heard how you have advanced the cause by helping our youth.(This message has been edited by Narraticong)

[Lem]

It sounds like you got things pretty squared away in Warren Michigan. I think that your experience, the way you describe, is pretty impressive. And I wouldn't argue against what you do and how you do it. The Eagle Scout kid sounds pretty terrific. Kudos to you both!

 

But I don't think that you are arguing that the exception refutes the rule? Do you think that BSA is a corrective for the Lunk-heads?

Maybe you do. And maybe you're right. But I don't see how.

 

And I really don't want to give up too much information about me and what I do or don't do for kids. I don't feel it is as germane to this argument as you do.

But the whole- You dont get us because you are not us. argument is pretty lame.

The comments and criticisms are either valid or they are not- based on themselves and not on the messenger. What is the difference if I am a scouter or not. The words either are off the mark or they are on target.

 

I still think that BSAs got room for improvement and thinned skinned scouters who take criticism as personal attacks dont add much to forwarding conversation.

 

Jeff

 

[OldGreyEagle]

Gee, you pretty much denigrate the efforts of a volunteer organization and when you get push back from the people who spend a lot of time in it you say we are think skinned well ok, what did you expect, thank you sire, may I have another?

 

As far as todays youth, I often think of this quote:

 

Our youth now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for their elders, and love chatter in places of exercise. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter

before company, gobble up their food and tyrannize

their teachers.

 

Of course, this is Socrates and it seems each generation disappoints the previous, its tradition

[SMT224]

Lem-Jeff,

 

In looking back over the messages in this Thread, your anti-Scouting diatribe strikes me as that of a food critic who reads about a restaurant, and maybe sees a few pictures, but never enters the place or tastes anything. Nevertheless, this critic has no problem telling everyone whats good and bad about the place despite having never experienced any of it!

 

It appears you've made your choice as to what you want, which is to say no to Scouting. Well, fine. Good luck in finding what is best for you and your sons.

 

But it does makes me wonder, what is your purpose at this forum? Is your intent to explore and learn about Scouting because you are truly interested? Based on your words, it seems you have made your mind up - you are anti-Scouting. You continue to post messages putting down Scouting. Why? To let those of us who are involved in Scouting in on your "wisdom"? To persuade us to abandon Scouting? Or what? Do you hate Scouting so much that youre here just jerk the chains of those committed to Scouting?

 

Quite frankly, you are way out of line to make the kind of statements you have made in this forum with absolutely no experience in Scouting as a boy or as an adult leader. Yes, it really does make a difference to walk a mile in someone elses shoes to gain a true understanding. An arm chair critic such as your self can only understand so much.

 

Here's an idea: Put your energy into an activity that works for you and your sons, and stop wasting your time writing nonsense!

 

 

[Lem]

I'll take that as my queue to skedaddle.

 

Thanks for the converation fellas.

 

Jeff

 

[TwoXForr]

I was wondering when someone would get tired of his bluster.

 

Bravo SMT244.

[Eagle1982]

Is Lem dead? You mean the guy who volunteered to be Scoutmaster to impress the girl?

 

There are still tons of guys like that. What you need are single girls that would be impressed by Lem.

 

 

[SSScout]

So his purpose was served. Ho hum.

 

Oh, bytheway, that's "cue" as in a prompt to act or a reminder, not "queue" as in a waiting line.

 

A querulous poster but strangely inappropriately verbose. Almost like his/her typos were purposeful.

 

Oh well, fun while it lasted.

[Narraticong]

Nicely played and well put SMT224! You can probably tell this guy has been really getting to me. I am not an old seasoned Scoutmaster like many of you on this forum. But in my fifty years, many of the men I have most admired have been Scout leaders. Our organization is not perfect, and we need to continue refining it if we want to stay meaningful. But I know that I have met many "Lems" in my time. Not every one is as successful as in the movie. But they all do what they do for one purpose- the boys.

 

Scouting has had such a profound effect on my life that I have chosen to dedicate most of my free time to the program. There is much left undone around my house that my wife would like to see done. But I am lucky to be married to a woman who sees the smile on my heart when I talk about "my boys".

 

The cool thing is that I know that any one of my fellow scouters on this forum could say the same words. We care about them. And for many boys today, we can really make a difference. That's not a self pat on the back, just a fair observation of the results of being a Scout.

 

Since the 1970's when it became no longer "cool" to be a Scout, BSA has taken shots from every corner. And we have sat back and taken them politely. Well, it's time to stop. Now more than ever, Scouting is the program that our boys need. If we are ever to turn around the mess our country has gotten into, we must build men who are capable of the task.

 

Our challenger "LEM" made excuses for why he could not tell us what he personally does for boys. That's like so many of our naysayers through the years. Lots of theories and opinions, but no effort and results.

 

Jump in and help us and if you are really a worker, you will be welcomed as a brother. But start knocking BSA and my boys and I'll start pushing back.

 

 

[Eagle92]

In reference to finding the single girls, tell me about it. i lost more girlfriends to scouting than I can count. BUT there are still a few girls out there impressed, you just have to be at the right place at the right time

[WaldenPond]

Maine greetings!

 

I think Lem had a naysayer way about him I personally find repugnant. But I think he did raise concerns and arguments that some of us have probably have heard before in friendlier quarters. As wrong-headed as many of his outlooks might be, I think he brought up the "perception" issue about scouting that we all can probably agree is in need of improvement. As someone who used to work in advertising, I have learned that anybody can legitimately say that everything is in need of better publicity and market placement.

 

I am heartened to learn that BSA is thinking about launching a new PR campaign in near future. I understand the arguments raised here that it is incumbent on volunteers to learn the program and execute it properly, but maybe BSA could make a better effort of attracting adults into considereing volunteering and training to be scouters.

 

The popular American imagination, if there is such a thing, seems to me to be open to the things BSA can deliver on. A new movie about scouting like the one being played with on another thread is not a stupid idea.

 

Many career fields and pursuits are largely affected by Media. Look at the explosion in the forensic school attendance after the CSI phenomenon.

 

Scouting just is not seen on TV, except on Cartoon Network as being portrayed as Slugs and other animals. The Moose scoutmaster is a favorite of my kids.

 

Even the military is benefited by film and TV. The portrayal of soldiers in the Transformers film probably got a lot of kids thinking about service as a positive thing.

 

A good honest portrayal of the Patrol Method in action- even in documentary form could be interesting and informative.

 

It might even inspire a whole new generation of Lems to take their place in the ranks of scouters.

 

 

 

 

[perdidochas]

Is Lem dead? You mean the guy who volunteered to be Scoutmaster to impress the girl?

There are still tons of guys like that. What you need are single girls that would be impressed by Lem.

I would imagine there are still tons of girls like that.  We just need to get them together for both's sake.

[perdidochas]

A good honest portrayal of the Patrol Method in action- even in documentary form could be interesting and informative.

 

 It might even inspire a whole new generation of Lems to take their place in the ranks of scouters.

 

It would make for a good reality series for one of the cable channels.  A year in the life of a Boy Scout troop, which could culminate in either Philmont, Boundary waters, or SeaBase.

[tagguy]

If you feel the need to impress girls by becoming a scoutmaster,than you have some real issues to work out.Besides,what kind of impression does that give the scouts?