Lem is dead, baby.

[Lem]

I don't want to be a scoutmaster for the reason that I have indeed found this organization to be way too flawed and strange for me or my boys. And I probably wouldn't make a very good scoutmaster anyways. I am one of those guys that just doesn't get scouting as it is today.

 

Jeff

[Narraticong]

Perhaps in the interest of helping LEM see the light, each of us Scoutmasters should take off our dirty, sweaty, worn out hiking boots. Mine are size 10 1/2. Lem can have a choice of which pair to walk a mile in.

 

Maybe if he's lucky he will find a pair that fits him just right. But I think perhaps they will all be a little too big. If they are too big, he can buy a pair that fits for now.

 

As he puts a few miles on his own pair, he just might find that they start to feel good. He might find that every scar on those boots mean he has spent valuable time helping boys. He might find that those boots call out to him from the closet, wanting to go on another outing. Their voice will be the combined voices of the millions of boys who have passed through Scouting.

 

My "ideal" of Lem (the one from the movie) is Rockwell's painting "The Scoutmaster". Most of you "insiders" will know that one. Have I ever stood outside by the campfire in the middle of the night in full uniform looking over my boys? No, not exactly like in the painting. But the painting represents what is in my heart.

 

Walk in our shoes before you tell us what does or doesn't work.

[gcnphkr]

Nope, there are plenty of Lems out there and boys happily following them. You are confused by the number of Ralph Hastings that exist both in and out of scouting.

 

Sadly, into every one's life, some Ralph will come.

[perdidochas]

Lem wrote:

I don't want to be a scoutmaster for the reason that I have indeed found this organization to be way too flawed and strange for me or my boys. And I probably wouldn't make a very good scoutmaster anyways. I am one of those guys that just doesn't get scouting as it is today.

 

 

 

You seem to base this mostly on your own experience in Cubs and Webelos, at least from my readings.

 

I'm still not sure what is so wrong with Scouting, other than your perception that scouts are Special Olympics material.

[Lem]

Hey Narraticong,

 

I don't have to tell you that the program is broken, flawed, or in need of a heck of a lot new blood. It is patently obvious to most honest folks who have seen the scouts in their communities in action (most of whom don't care enogh to comment on it). And just becasue you think you have check-mated me somehow by discovering that I am disqualified from commenting on an organization I refuse to belong to doen'st mean that the organization is any less screwy. You can believe what you want about my shoe size buddy. And you can cry in your dutch oven about all the millions of boys that have done good by scouting. It won't change the fact that BSA is a shadow of its former self- and that is a rotten shame. But maybe our country is also a shadow of its former self. BSA is sliding into total irrelevancy to American youth and adults. And that is the plain truth - no matter who is the one saying it.

 

But good luck with living up the Norman Rockwell ideal- I can relate.

 

Jeff

[asm 411]

Hello Jeff,

 

Scouting is only what the Scouters mold it into being. If Scouting if failing where you are then you need to bring more to it. I believe that I have a lot to give to the Scouts and do. Our troop is in transition from being a troop divided up into patrols and troop made up of patrols. This one perspective has made a world of change in our Scouts. There are policies and guidelines that we have to follow now. The rank requirements are different from when I earned my Eagle in 1980 but advancement is only one eighth of what we do. I have 10 weekends, a week of summer camp and about 40 hour long meetings to make an impact on the Scouts in my troop every year. I try to make the most of it, one Scout at a time.

 

Scouting in many ways is not what it was when I as boy. The core of Scouting is very much the same as it was. One mission, 3 aims and 8 methods. How we as Scouters work toward the mission and the aims using the methods is what makes the difference.

 

Lincoln

[TwoXForr]

Lem I keep hearing these grand statements about how Scouts are broken.

 

But I have not heard how. Are we not teaching the Oath and Law. Are we not creating individuals who are self reliant and can stand on thier own. What exactly in your opinion are we doing wrong.

 

And if you answer is antedotal evidence about a few poor scouts in your area, I will give you that not all Scouts live they way they should, heck not all Scouters either. But I could give you just as many stories about Scouts who are doing the right thing, standing firm in thier convictions, helping others who need help.

 

I am sorry Lem that some come down on you for being outside pointing your finger about what is wrong but I go back to this famous quote when it comes right down to it.

 

"It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat."

 

By Theodore Roosevelt.

 

 

[SR540Beaver]

Jeff,

 

I hate to break it to you dude.......but Indiana Jones is not truely representative of a career in archeology. Indy is fictional just like Lem and his troop. You might want to swap the rose colored glasses for a pair of clear reality specs.

[OldGreyEagle]

Knute Rockne is dead as well. The image of the College Football coaches as men molding young boys into men for the love of the game and the glory of the Institution, is long gone as well everywhere but Happy Valley. (see Lou Saban, Bobby Petrino, etc)

 

That Society has changed is fact, change is constant. It reminds me of the old joke about how many Scouters does it take to change a light bulb, Three, Two talk about how good the old times were when the bulb worked and the other actually changes the bulb. or you could look at it as lighting a candle rather than cursing the darkness but in anyu shape society changes. And always has

[Lem]

TwoXforr wrote::"But I have not heard how (scouts are failing). Are we not teaching the Oath and Law. Are we not creating individuals who are self reliant and can stand on thier own. What exactly in your opinion are we doing wrong."

 

I think since the oath and law are usually only words to memorize and not necessarily applied in the actual methods of scouting- as is clearly evidenced in the Lisabob affair (bullying breaks about half of the scout laws and the oath), then really what the oath and law serve to do is sell scouting to mom and dad and the CO which is now usually a church.

 

Scouting has clearly abdicated its place in society as the premiere moral authority for youth organizations.

 

But maybe you guys are right: scouting is the best organization for boys available. From my point of view scouting does more harm than hurt to the greater scouting outdoors movement by enforcing its monopoly on the name "scouting" and suing any association that wants to say what they are doing is scout-craft or scouting. I DO believe BSA has strayed too far from the Baden Powell reservation, and that they are light years from the Daniel Beards and Setons. You can protect your little scouter-priest-class all you want- but the orthodoxy of scouting you adhere to is stilted and boring and prescriptive and talent-proof. I compared it to the educational establishment that has also gone down hill by also following trends in modern psychology, political correctness, and entrenched mediocrity. Education and scouting both lost focus on their primary missions and they both have suffered accordingly.

 

I agree that scouters, like educators, should be commended for the hours of work they do to mentor boys. But scouting the way it was demonstrated in the Disney film shows a model of the joy of scouting that is all too lacking today. And what is also missing in scouting is an espirit de corps that would arise naturally if the boys in scouts knew what they were doing was truly excellent, and not merely good enough. And lastly, - scouting today, like education all too often, is missing a sense of customer service and a marked disregard for the non-scouting public.

 

By the way- how ARE your numbers lately? Is attendance up? Is BSA delivering the Promise of scouting?? How many scout camps have closed and opened in the last five years? It is becoming a kind of sad joke out here. And no one should blame the kids.

Scouting was devised by warriors because they knew that you should be on a war footing when you are under attack. Our youth are always under attack. And only a militant and focused movement can hope to counter it. BSA is not that. It tried to be was for a while. Now it is a soft, unfocused meandering lout that doesnt know the world moved on without them.

 

Jeff

 

 

[Gold Winger]

Lem, you have a few valid points but you're missing the mark elsewhere.

 

You don't know what sort of Training Lem in the movie would have had to have taken. Lem taking training wouldn't have been good cinema.

 

99%, okay, let's 95% of the problems with Boy Scouts today are reflected elsewhere in society. Failure? No one is allowed to fail today. At some schools, if you get an F as a final grade, they record it as an incomplete. Not make the team? Nooooo, everyone makes the team today. In Scouting that's reflected as "what do you mean you expect my son to pitch a tent? He's only 11." or "I know he didn't go on the campout but he had a soccer game, could he sleep in our back yard and you count that. No? That's not fair."

 

Lem would have fallen under the "creepy" category of one poster because he didn't have boys in the troop. I strongly believe that coming into Scouting because your son joined is weakening the delivery of the program. The SM and CC (or ASM or MC) who have kids in the program usually have an agenda revolving around their kids. Also being parents, they don't want to see their children fail so they wind up taking charge. Then the whole thing starts to slide downhill.

 

Throw in a big dose of "I really don't want to be here" with many of the boys and you aren't going to have "esprit de corps." They're just there on Tuesday nights because their parents made them. Patrol competitions, yells, etc. make no never mind to them because THEY DON'T WANT TO BE THERE.

 

Where do they want to be? Playing video games.

 

Lem, look around you. The suburban or even urban child of our youth and before is long gone. Kids are under continual supervision today, especially when young. The only kids that aren't supervised today are the bad eggs, the ones out roaming the streets at 2 AM on a school night because their parents don't give a hoot.

 

Think about it. A kid today gets up and goes to before school care, then off to school, then after school care, finally to home to gobble a quick dinner and then off to karate, soccer, chorus, Scouts, church school, etc. and finally home to be. Where's the free time to build go-karts, tree-forts, dig big holes, or just watch the clouds float by?

 

Is it any wonder that kids today make stupid choices the first chance that they have? Drinking excessively. Sex? One young woman that I know told me that her goal on spring break was to have sex with as many guys as she could. She wants to be a teacher and is a dean's list student but HOW STUPID CAN YOU BE?

 

So back to Scouting. In today's world where no one will allow their child to fail where does that leave Scouting?

 

In my perfect world, the Scoutmaster and most of the committee would have no children in the unit. They'd want to see the unit succeed for the sake of all of the children and not just their own.

 

That's where the Lems of the world come from. They aren't looking out for their child, they're looking out for all of the children.

 

I'll end this by saying I know that someone or a few will pipe up and say, "Hey, I don't do that" but, come on admit it, you're in the minority. We're all in the minority because we come here and discuss how things are done, should be done and could be done. There's what, a million Scouters out there? How many participate on this or any other forum? Thousands may be registered but only a few particiapte on a regualar basis.

 

Look at all the other opportunities for learning that Scouters have and ignore. What would Roundtable be like if every unit Scouter came? How about UoS?

 

Last year a district that I was working with promulgated a rule that all "direct contact" Scouters must be "trained" by the next recharter time. At the roundtable where this was announced, one CM stood up and said, "My den leaders won't stand for that and they'll quit." Why? Why wouldn't you want to know the WHAT, HOW and WHY of your job?

 

I'm starting to ramble so I'll quit now.

[perdidochas]

Goldwinger wrote:

Lem would have fallen under the "creepy" category of one poster because he didn't have boys in the troop. I strongly believe that coming into Scouting because your son joined is weakening the delivery of the program. The SM and CC (or ASM or MC) who have kids in the program usually have an agenda revolving around their kids. Also being parents, they don't want to see their children fail so they wind up taking charge. Then the whole thing starts to slide downhill.

Good point. 

 Throw in a big dose of "I really don't want to be here" with many of the boys and you aren't going to have "esprit de corps." They're just there on Tuesday nights because their parents made them. Patrol competitions, yells, etc. make no never mind to them because THEY DON'T WANT TO BE THERE. Where do they want to be?

Playing video games.

I don't see a lot of that with Scouts.  Scouts are in Scouts because they need an alternative to video games.  While most kids play some video games, I find those into scouting play less of them. 

Lem, look around you. The suburban or even urban child of our youth and before is long gone. Kids are under continual supervision today, especially when young. The only kids that aren't supervised today are the bad eggs, the ones out roaming the streets at 2 AM on a school night because their parents don't give a hoot.

Think about it. A kid today gets up and goes to before school care, then off to school, then after school care, finally to home to gobble a quick dinner and then off to karate, soccer, chorus, Scouts, church school, etc. and finally home to be. Where's the free time to build go-karts, tree-forts, dig big holes, or just watch the clouds float by?

Unfortunately, that is so true.  A few years ago, I decided to go with my boys on an exploration trip of some nearby vacant land.  I was both pleasantly and unpleasantly surprised at the kids I saw. I was happy that there were other kids out on a nice day.  The sad part is that besides me and my boys, the only people roaming and playing in the woods were girls.  They were playing similar to the way boys did when I was growing up. 

Is it any wonder that kids today make stupid choices the first chance that they have? Drinking excessively. Sex? One young woman that I know told me that her goal on spring break was to have sex with as many guys as she could. She wants to be a teacher and is a dean's list student but HOW STUPID CAN YOU BE?

So back to Scouting. In today's world where no one will allow their child to fail where does that leave Scouting?

Well, it gives them a chance to fail with good people backing them up. I think the parents of new scouts should be told the importance of "trial and error" learning for scouts.  I really don't view this as a pass/fail thing, but a try until you pass thing. 

In my perfect world, the Scoutmaster and most of the committee would have no children in the unit. They'd want to see the unit succeed for the sake of all of the children and not just their own.

That's where the Lems of the world come from. They aren't looking out for their child, they're looking out for all of the children.

 I'll end this by saying I know that someone or a few will pipe up and say, "Hey, I don't do that" but, come on admit it, you're in the minority. We're all in the minority because we come here and discuss how things are done, should be done and could be done. There's what, a million Scouters out there? How many participate on this or any other forum? Thousands may be registered but only a few particiapte on a regualar basis.

Look at all the other opportunities for learning that Scouters have and ignore. What would Roundtable be like if every unit Scouter came? How about UoS?

 Last year a district that I was working with promulgated a rule that all "direct contact" Scouters must be "trained" by the next recharter time. At the roundtable where this was announced, one CM stood up and said, "My den leaders won't stand for that and they'll quit." Why? Why wouldn't you want to know the WHAT, HOW and WHY of your job? I'm starting to ramble so I'll quit now.

Busy schedules.  I retook NLE and took Position Specific training for Webelos this year, as well as BALOO and OWL.  It took a lot of my precious weekend time on two separate weekends to do that.  I have a fellow Den leader in my pack. He's a firefighter, and works one day on/one day off.  Since he's become a Den Leader, every single offering of Position Specific training has occurred on his work days.  He's done all the online training possible, and I wouldn't be surprised if he's on here sometimes.  However, he would have to relinquish his post, if stringent requirements were put into place. 

[Gold Winger]

There are and can be creative ways to get trained. Maybe not ideal training but training. Our district training chair offered to set up training for individual units for committee training. Out of 50 units, how many accepted? Zero.

 

If you're too busy to get the training, how can you not be too busy to do the job properly?

 

When I officiated basketball, we had to go through a state mandated training session about rule changes and new interpretations of rules. About half of my organization hated that meeting. Their attitude was "I know how to referee, why do I need to know about the rules." Sure 'nuff, the season would start and they'd be caught unawares by a new rule. The coaches were just as bad, the state mandated that all schools had to send a rep to the meetings. Usually, it was the junior assistant JV coach. So when I'd make a call based on a new rule, the head coach would go nuts. "Where'd that come from."

 

People will take time off from work to drive halfway across the country for a concert or game but take some time off to get trained for Scouting? Far too many say, "I can't do that, besides it's only Scouting."

[sheldonsmom]

Lem,

Why are you on this forum? You admittedly are not BSA and said your wife is with Girl Scouting. Are you here only to mock scouting because you didn't like Cub Scouts? You can post here as well as anyone else, but, if your sole purpose is to try to bring down BSA, why bother. You said you don't intend to allow your sons to participate, fine. Your choice and theirs. But we have the right to participate with or without our sons. The BSA is not a perfect organization because it is full of people and people are not perfect. Could it be better? Of course. Should it be better? Definately! Constructive critisism is always helpful but spiteful comments aid no one.

 

[TwoXForr]

Yes, Lem why are you here?