Lem is dead, baby.

[Lem]

This has been spun from the Follow ME Boys Thread.

 

Do you think that BSA's current training films, and efforts to reach out into the general adult communities across America, are attracting the Lem-types of individuals? Can we say there is a LEM- TYPE??

 

I am not insinuating that I am a Lem-type. But I am a man who was repelled by my brief experiences with the scouters and programs I witnessed. And from my friends who have been in scouting, I have learned that scouting is a very unadventurous and "parlory" version compared to the example in the Disney film.

Should Follow Me Boys be more of an Exemplar for current BSA? Can we learn from it and the Norman Rockwell version of scouting and even the scouting of the Old time scouting that was more like the stuff in DANGEROUS BOOK FOR BOYS than the Boys current handbook?

 

Has the current BSA made itself Lem-resistant or Lem-proof, much like the current educational establishment has repelled many fine individuals and natural teachers from going into teaching??

I think the answer is OBVIOUSLY!

 

My background is in teaching. And I have witnessed that the teaching-training establishment has become a haven for left-wing radicals teaching very much the same radical bile as Bill Ayers is in Chicago. In fact I studied right up the road from Bill Ayers, and his colleagues in the teaching department at DePaul loved him and his way of doing things.

 

My point is that teaching as most civilians think about it is actually much different today in reality. It has been hijacked by a technocratic elite that speaks in nearly incomprehensible vernacular. Their basic assumptions and world outlook are radically askew from the greater publics. And there programme for teaching teachers is NOT in the interest of teaching children to be the kinds of literate and interested American citizens we would hope for, but instead they are using the classroom as a kind of political theatre or left-wing madrass to instill in children the bilge of global warming, anti-gun politics, anti-American an anti-colonialism blather, and the pro gay agenda.

Again- I have firsthand knowledge of this in over twenty years of teaching in both public and private urbamn and rural schools.

 

 

I would guess that a vociferous NO-WAY-JOSE will erupt from the scouter glee-club and condemn this thread premise as whacky and out-of-step. But I think BSA has become both whacky and out of step with the Lems of the world. BSA doesnt seem to exude a common sense and a sense of inevitability in its wisdom. It seems to have turned into an odd little club for middle-aged folks who are more pre-occupied with dutch ovens and tying knots than what boys want-need- and how they operate. (As Lem seemed to get implicitly).

 

But for those who suspect that BSA has presented a scouting that is kind of creepy- strange, bureaucratic, and un-robust, what do you think could be done to resuscitate its presentation and message to attract citizens to form troops and packs and be Lems in their communities.

 

Is America making Lems and Whiteys anymore? I think yes. America always has. Just like it continues to make boys in the mold of Johnny Tremains and Huck Finns and Sergeant Yorks

Jeff

)(This message has been edited by Lem)

[sheldonsmom]

Lem is not dead but the "establishment" is trying to stifle him at best.

I whole-heartedly agree with you about "Big Education". We removed our children from public schools and started home schooling precisely because of the examples of individuals like Ayers and his ilk. I worry about how long we will be allowed to continue home schooling but will do it as long as possible.

Maybe if more of us were as vocal about our hopes and plans for scouting as the other side is, we might make some headway. Maybe if the "leadership" came out of the ivory tower occasionally they would realize it already.

 

 

[red feather]

Not sure what your 'scouting pedigree' is Lem. Your profile is blank and after reviewing your last posts not sure really where you are coming from.

 

Not sure how to respond to your post.

 

red feather

 

Lem Siddons wanttobe

 

yis

[Gold Winger]

"Is America making Lems and Whiteys anymore? I think yes. America always has. Just like it continues to make boys in the mold of Johnny Tremains and Huck Finns and Sergeant Yorks Jeff"

 

Nah, don't think so. I don't see kids adventuing on their own anymore, even if it is just exploring the woods behind their house. No more rafting down the river. No exploring caves. It's all video games, play dates, and soccer (bleh!) leagues.

 

Much of Scouting maybe a bunch of middle aged guys with dutch ovens but what is it that boys want today? Adventure? Excitement? Exploration? Nah.

 

Look at the heroes of youth in days gone by, fictional and factual. Robin Hood, Dan'l Boone, Davey Crockett, Admiral Byrd, Ivanhoe, Perry, Tom Swift, the Hardy Boys. Do kids even have heroes today? Rappers, rock stars, and 1st person shooter games.

 

Bah . . . I'm know, I'm just a quickly aging cynic.

[DeanRx]

The Lems aren't dead - you just have to not let the beuracrats knock you down.

 

Example - there are TWO ways to read the G2SS, one is "what does it say we can't do ?"... the other is "What doesn't it explicitly prohibit us from doing ?!?!" I opt for the 2nd way as much as possible and stretch the limit as much too.

 

Case in point. We had a PACK (mind you cubbies) campout last weekend. I took my climbing gear and made a pully system up in a tree branch about 20 ft up. We tied swiss seats (practicle knot lesson) for the boys and took turns hoisting them up to get a new perspective on the campgrounds... Now, some would tell me that as cubs they are not 'allowed' to do any climbing activities... BAH !! It wasn't climbing, they were tied into a static line with beaners and being lifted by a non-slip, man powered lift. They loved it and it was FAR safer than the boulder bounding we had going on at the last campout... can't keep kids off rocks, might as well keep 'em safe!

 

We also did BB-gun and Archery. Those were the two big highlights. So they still crave outdoor adventure.

 

We just cannot be complacent about giving them opportunities.

 

As for Red Feather and his "scouting pedigree" - WTF ?!?! Who cares? Is the volunteer excited and ready to help / lead? Did they go through the required checks and training? Then who gives a DAMN what (if any) scouting expirience or "pedigree" they have.

 

One of the BIGGEST problems in BSA is the intellectual inbreeding and flat out stubborness I've seen by people who THINK you must be an Eagle or had Wood Badge (or both) for your input and ideas to carry any weight in the organization. If such folks were half as concerned about program content as they are about their own clout within the group, then BSA would be a much more dynamic organization. Give me an enthusiastic leader that is willing to train, passed the YPG checks and has fun ideas - I don't care if they ever made it past Bobcat as a kid.

[OldGreyEagle]

If the prognosis of the patient is so absolutely grim, why continue?(This message has been edited by oldgreyeagle)

[Lem]

I have stated that I won't put my boys into scouting, but I do try and provide them with the opportunities and support of their own initiatives. My daughter's experiences with scouting will soon be coming to an end as we are considering other local options.

 

But I have been attracted to an idea of scouting that from my real life experiences with scouters and scout groups seems mostly fictional. I have as a hobby developed a reading habit that involves devouring the old scout manuals and literature written by men like Powell and Beard and Seton. I have an interest in the issue of child raising historically and how different cultures approached the same problem.

 

I have a background in education, public relations, and small business. My wife and I have worked on many committees involved in education and community organizing. And the idea of working with youth on a larger scale than the local church group or football team is one that interests us.

So I am someone looking from the outside in- and I prefer to keep it that way.

 

I made it through weblos in the seventies and dropped out. My wife was a girl scout. I served in the air force R.O.T.C. for a few years and studied a little engineering, design, and a lot of history and art.

 

If you think my questions and observations don't hit the mark, then I would just say that I guess my contributions werent salient and leave it at that.

 

I have found that many of the contributors to this site are some extraordinary people giving a lot of their time and energies in the cause of boys. I think they deserve, IMHO, a better run and better overall organization than what BSA is providing.

 

I am a critic of BSA because I think BSA has lost its efficacy, its standing as a premier youth organization, and its reputation in communities around the nation. And I don't blame society- even though there is always blame to go around- I put the blame squarely on the old guard who don't seem to have the imagination, the willingness to think for themselves, and the chutzpah to lead a once great youth movement back into the center stage of the American boy's life.

 

BSA shouldnt be lame, or wimpy, or overweight, or bookish, or bureaucratic, and especially not scared of running afoul of every little rule handed down by national. But it has become just that.

I dont buy the litigiousness argument. You can get NRA certified as a rifle instructor and get millions of dollars in coverage for just hundreds of dollars. Why? Because if you are following NRA guidelines the insurance companies know that what you are doing is safe. But just avoiding the activities because you are afraid of litigation is not always necessary. BSA should figure out a better way to pass on liability onto the scoutmasters and COs so they can run a more interesting local program that is less dependent on summer council events.

BSA has made scouting less fun, more work, and defiantly more retarded than it used to be.

Jeff

(This message has been edited by Lem)

[Bob White]

The BSa training videos and courses were never designed to "attract" people that match the fictioal character of the scoutmaster in the Disney film.

 

Attracting and recruiting people of the right character is r=the responsibility of the chartering organization. Folks need to come to the BSA with the appropriate chacter. The BSa training courses are meant to explain the program not change the character of the participants.

 

The vast majority of the folks I have met through scouting are genuinely good people, but the old axiom applies, "send a pig to training and you will get back a trained pig." Or, in the lingo of then yechno world "GIGO" Garbage in-garbage out. Send a person with the wrong characteristics for being a scout leader to training and you will get back a poor Scout leader with a "trained" patch

 

If you do not feel that your local scout leaders have the correct character for the role then you need to look to your community and your charter organizations for a solution, not a BSA training film or a Disney movie.

 

 

[Lem]

Yes Bob,

 

Your answering machine is working fine.

 

Jeff

[Eagle92]

I must disagree with ya LEM, it is the lawsuits that are driving the BSA nuts. Scouters do have liability insurance in the form of their membership fees. The problem is if you do not follow the G2SS, you are not covered. The G2SS was developed in response to the numerous lawsuits that have arisen. Unfortunately if you are a large organization, whether for profit or non-profit, you are a target for lawsuits. Heck even if you are a wealthy individual you are4 a target. Don't believe me, ask McDonalds, Wendy's, or even watch a few daytime commercials of lawyers advertising that "you may have a case." Some people today are looking for the quick and easy way to make money and not earn it. Hence lawsuit mania. Unfortunately I have some of those folks in my extended family, and I do not like it.

 

While you can't do everything that you use to, there is still a lot than can be done. I've been on two 5o milers, one up in Canada, and one in the Gulf with scouting units. I've had the opportunity to go camping in the UK because of the scouts. I've been backpacking, canoeing, COPE ing, ad naseuem with the scouts. the opportunities are still there. You just have to fill out the paperwork, plan, plan, plan, and follow the guidelines.

 

trust me there are there for a reason. A good friend of mine and an Eagle Scout did something very stupid. On a whim he decided to go hiking by himself in one of the national parks on his day off. Long story short, he only told one person what he was up to, had an accident, and was stuck in the middle of a cliff for 7 days. Luckily he had a survival kit, but he hadn't prepped for the trip fully.

[Narraticong]

Scouts can be as exciting and fun for boys today as it ever was. Actually, I think my 50 year old memory only has room for the fun stuff from my youth. The boring stuff just doesn't fit in their anymore. I don't remember that learning to march like a soldier for the Memorial Day Parade was my idea of fun as a twelve year old boy.

 

The program is what you and your boys make it to be. Boys may be locked up inside with their video games today rather than out exploring. But for me, it's a wonderful gift to be the one who releases them to find all of the excitement to be found in the woods. I have nine of fifteen boys heading out for their first cold weather camping experience this weekend. They are all excited to be going. Nobody asked whether their Nintendo batteries would freeze overnight. Instead, they planned their 5 mile hike.

 

We all have choices. Mine is to believe that Scouting is still the best option out there for my son and all his friends. So, I will follow the GSS, and the current requirements. But I will keep everything written by Green Bar Bill close at hand.

 

I think it's starting to work. My 12 year old PL son told me the other day that "Outing is 3/4 of Scouting". Hmmmm, maybe he's got something.

[Lem]

I don't remember CUb or Weblos being very fun actually. But I was more of the Huck Finn type, and me and my buddies would go off on our own adventures. Scouts as far as I can remember it was house-wives giving boys crafts to do.

 

Maybe the scouting I imagine, that ideal, is impossible.

 

Jeff

[Narraticong]

OK LEM, you have lots of folks now in two threads, telling you that Scouting can still be vital and exciting for boys. Yet here you are still whining. You are right, "ideal" is just a dream, it is not going to happen today. It didn't happen in the 1950's or 1960's either.

 

I'll tell you a secret. I knew some boys who posed for Norman Rockwell Scouting Calendars and paintings. The paintings were beautiful. But they were no more than an artist's idea of an "ideal". The troop those boys came from was no better and no worse than my troop today.

 

As long as there are boys and as long as their are leaders who care, Lem lives on in this program. He is as alive and vital as ever.

 

Your boys will only get out of it what you put into it. Plain and simple. You can sit on the sidelines and dream, or you can get off your butt and do.

 

Your choice...

[Kahuna]

Ideals of anything are generally impossible, but I think it is reasonably possible in the BSA of today.

 

The key, I think, is to take all the training you can get, understand the program and then use your best judgment in any given situations. The problem today is that many of the new leaders coming in don't know any better than to follow the training blindly. Some things, like G2SS are pretty much non-negotiable, but even within that bureacratic, legalistic document there is a lot of flexibility.

 

It's true that Lem Siddons is fictional character and the movie is a Disney version of a book by McKinlay Kantor. But it captures one of the true ideals of Scouting: it's a game that's supposed to be fun for boys. Only when you get past that can you start looking to build character and citizenship.

[Eagledad]

>>I am a critic of BSA because I think BSA has lost its efficacy, its standing as a premier youth organization, and its reputation in communities around the nation. And I don't blame society- even though there is always blame to go around-