there are other youth groups

[John-in-KC]

Scouting, executed properly, is perhaps the best whole person youth program available. Lisa, as you've seen, it's not always executed to its best.

 

As kids like yours move up to high school, they start narrowing their interests a bit. EagleSon spent much of his time in band and Teenage Republicans at the high school, barbershop harmony with his step-dad, and church HS youth group, as a place where he could just chill.

 

I disagree on the significance of Eagle. HR folks may say it's one of many, but I'm helping EagleSons pledge father in the fraternity find internships for summer 09 and 09-10 school year. One friend, a retired 2-star general and VP of a major engineering firm, said "Eagle Scout? I want his paper." Another, the recruiter for my firm, said "Eagle Scout? When can I see his paper?"

 

Part of it is I'm willing to network him along, but the simple fact is cold calling doesn't get as many interviews as networking does. The networkers are looking for buzzwords, and Eagle is a buzzword.

 

With that digression done, I agree with Lisa, as she said in the other thread, that advancement is but 1 of the 8 methods, and if a kid extracts full benefit without Eagle, fantastic.

 

I actually understand the parents who push their kids to specializing early. I'm lucky, EagleSon attends a Big 12 university, and I'm only forking out about $14K this year. (His share is $1.5K in scholarships and .75K in tuition offsets). I have a decent 529 plan, even in the recession, and I also have ~600 a month I pay (him now directly) in child support, as mandated by the State. That covers his frat fees and then some. Getting a kid out of undergrad without loans is tough. Parents are forcing specialization and early expertise, because the front end costs of life are so much greater than they were when we 40 and 50 somethings were as kids.

 

Sorry if this hijacks your thread, L, folks spin off as needed.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

[CalicoPenn]

I'm not so sure I would be quick to dismiss programs such as 4-H, Campfire, and Girl Scouts from the "best whole person youth program available" rubric. I think what makes the BSA special is just as noticeable in these other three organizations, but most of us interact with just one of the 4 groups, so aren't necessarily mindful of what the other three do.

 

Notice the other three I chose - they share some things in common with the BSA - they are all national groups, and are fairly well known. they also tend to be similar from state to state. Other groups, such as Awana, are much more franchised and one churches Awana club will be very different from another's.

 

So what makes the "Big 4" special? Their consistency in program (generally) from state to state. When I meet someone who was a Boy Scout in Nebraska, I'm reasonably assured that we have certain shared experiences though we've never met. I think you'll find that same answer from someone who's been involved in one of the other "Big 4".

 

Calico

[Lisabob]

Having been involved with 4H as a youth and as an adult, I would tend to agree with you Calico.

 

I don't intend to leave scouting and I do see a lot of value in what scouting has to offer (when done well as John says). I was just thinking about what it is that makes scouting different, special, or perhaps unique. Many of you have given me food for thought, and I thank you.

[DeanRx]

LisaBob-

 

Perhaps the one thing (that I haven't seen mentioned yet) is the fact that BSA is meant for EVERY boy. (yes, even those that might be quesitoning their sexuality or if God really does exist)

 

I agree your troop's leadership needs to address the "bullying" issue. However, did you ever stop to think, maybe the kid doing the bullying NEEDS scouts just as much (if not more) than your son or other boys in the group?

 

Here's the main difference I see (even with all the questions of should we or should we not throw a kid out for x,y,z)...

 

No other youth program I know of (save maybe the Young Marines, or JROTC) is willing to take the masses, the rif-raf, along with the good family kids and build them ALL up collectively as a team and into young adults with goals and a sense or purpose.

 

BSA puts them into uniforms - why? 1) so they identify with the group 2) Its an attempt to remove class status from the haves and the have-nots 3) It levels the playing field. Everyone looks the same, everyone must do the same tasks to earn a given rank. We camp together using Troop equipment. It is a group of 'US', not a group of individuals with a common interest. That's the goal anyways.

 

Sports - you're only as good as you can perform. Step out of line and unless you are the absolute star, you'll be riding the bench until you take the hint and drop out. If you're the rich kid, your equipment will ALWAYS be better than the poor kid's stuff. Plus, there are travel and all-star teams... there's no sense of teamwork anymore - its about who's kid can get the most play time to move up to the next level, start varsity, get the college scholarship... or take the shot at the big leagues.

 

Church Youth Group - Every one I've seen, been in, or been involved with has a very narrow view of what is right and acceptable behavoir. They are, by definition, a exclusive group because most require membership in a given congregation to be a member. Step outside those boundries - might as well pin a letter 'A' on your chest.

 

4H, Campfire, etc... most other groups are a common iterest built around individual achievement and competition. When is the last time you saw an entire 4H club get a ribbon for ALL their livestock? Nope - its one kid, one cow, one ribbon.

 

While not a military organization, what BP, the good Green Bar Bill, and others who have influenced BSA have tried to do (and hopefully have not had undone over time), is to CHALLENGE boys and young men into growing into purpose driven young adults.

 

Eagle is a great rank and a great honor. But, if your sole purpose (either as a scout or as a scout's parent) is to make Eagle so you have more bling to put on a resume or college application - then you are in it for the WRONG reasons! Its the development or character that matters, not the rank attained. Who's the better scout? The kid who is a gifted student and athelete and with the support of both parents makes Eagle by age 14? Or, the kid with a mom who works 2 jobs to keep her family fed, no dad he's ever known, but he finds purpose in scouting. Maybe he's not the brightest because he doesn't get the encouragement he needs in his home life - but he goes camping and learns some skills, makes it to Star or Life, but then fades away... BSA did 'em both good and if they both live the Oath and Law to the best of their abilities, then they are both good scouts.

 

BSA uses many methods to persue this goal. The patrol method is one. Mentorship from older scouts (PL), ASM, and SM's. The idea that before you can be a good leader, you must first learn how to follow. The ideal that success or failure of the group lies with each individual. The idea that you use outdoor skills to teach kids how to lead others... 1) Be taught the skill 2) Do the skill on your own 3) Now teach it to someone else.

 

These are all BSA's training methods, but they are born from a military background. If you don't believe me, look at BSA guidelines, then pick up some ROTC leadership training texts and take a look at how ALL the U.S. military academies run their programs. There are many parallels. It encourages the timid, yet is willing to break down the strong willed - so that both can be molded into their full potential. BSA knows this one truism - very little is gained until you push the scout beyond what they think they can accomplish.

 

One of the things that makes BSA stand out, is it is just as important and needed by the bully as those he bullies. The fact is properly implimented, the teaching tools in the BSA toolbox can help develop both boys into the men we need in the future generation.

 

Some of the scouts in my Troop growing up were there because they really didn't have anywhere else to go. They did their fair share of bullying (now called hazing and not allowed by BSA). I did my fair share as well. We all learned from it. We learned how to DEAL with real life in a semi-controlled and safe environment. Yes, maybe we were rough with each other. Yes, maybe someone got their feelings hurt a little. On a couple of occasions, we got scraped up and a nose or two got bloody.

 

But guess what? The real world is mean. The real world doesn't care if you're unprepared for it - it runs you over just the same. The business world is cut-throat. The guy who gave me a fat lip when we were both Tenderfoots was the best man at my wedding 12 years ago. I count him as one of the very few people I would literally lay my life on the line for.

 

Sorry if I sound harsh -Lisabob- but the point of scouting should be to help TEACH the boys how to deal with the real world, not protect them from it. This means that BSA teaches your son how to stick up for himself. This means BSA teaches the bully that if he acts that way enough times, to enough people he will soon find himself alone and without friends. Those are the realities of life that BSA (done right) can teach our son's to handle as adults.

 

I don't know of any other youth organization that even begins to try and accomplish such a task.

[fleetfootedfox]

Yeah, people often argue you can get the same things other places that you get from scouting, but then again you may not. I was not a scout as a boy and am convinced I would have benefited from the program. Also, I could have done scouting while still doing the other activities I was involved in.

 

When I was cub scout age, I was in what some might consider a scout-like organization. It was a Baptist program that emphasized missions called "Royal Ambassadors". As far as I can recall, our church wouldn't sponsor a BSA pack/troop, because the BSA included boys from other denominations. Main thing I remember, though, is the boys wanted to go camping, but the men who were running the program weren't interested. The program had an outdoor/camping element, but that was an optional part of the program.

 

I did eventually do some fun things with my church youth group, but when I went canoeing with the church group, I didn't know what I was doing, nor did most of the other people, and I think we were just lucky none of us drowned.

 

As far as sports go, I have a very clear memory of my 6th grade assistant basketball coach (one of the dads) teaching us how to cheat. I'm sure he taught us other stuff, but that's what will always stick out in my mind when I think of him. So, does one bad coach mean I would keep my boys away from basketball? Of course not. All three of my boys play basketball today, and all of them are scouts.

 

So, you can try your luck with another program, even one that looks like scouting on the surface because they have patches and uniforms, but if you do I hope you have better luck than I and my parents did. For me, as a parent, I like what I see in the scouting program. Are all scout leaders and troops following the program perfectly? No, but I'm involved and doing my best, and that's all I ask of the others.

[Mr. Boyce]

We've all heard about the great values that sports participation is supposed to be giving kids. .. but I think for even the general public, this notion is wearing thin.

 

I think people like sports for their kids because it often is a dump and run, the schedule is pretty clear, the activities are very open to the world, no secrets.

 

But I think the old notion of teaching kids Proper English Gentleman Amateur Sports Values is laughed at by most people. That's just not the focus, if it ever was.

 

Lisabob, your troop has problems, no doubt. Someone needs to clamp down on the bully for a time; it might be a good life lesson for the bully as well.

 

The best thing about scouts is that it puts the kids in the drivers seat. It for the first time gives them a sense of empowerment. . . that "we can DO this" feeling, which is so vital for kids to get, since it begins letting them actually start realizing their potentials.

[tagguy]

It seems to me that the root of the problem is not scouting in general,but the hazing,and immaturity of the scout in the troop.First of all,lose the hazing!! If it cost the troop a few so-called bullies,then the troop will be far better in the long run,and the scouts can be scouts.If you join the Royal Rangers,Avantis,Young Marines,or some other religious or military based group,chances are very high,that you will run into the same issues,in one form or another. Boys WILL be boys.

[Bob White]

What mskes Scouting unique are the program Methods. If the leaders of the unit do not know or do not use the program Methods than it is no different from any other youth program.

[Beavah]

Yah, all youth programs have some form of Methods, eh?

 

There's all kinds of great programs for kids out there. I think we're all naturally biased in favor of da one we're in, but we should be honest.

 

We don't serve all boys. BSA mostly serves rural and suburban Christian-background middle class white lads, and a relatively small fraction of those. We haven't had much penetration into da urban communities or immigrant communities at all. We've abandoned public schools as charter partners (about the only institution that can be legitimately pointed to as tryin' to serve "all" kids). We're not a really great place for lads with more severe emotional or physical disabilities. And like most youth programs, we have a duty to protect the majority of the boys from the occasional bully, drug dealer, thief, etc. even though those boys "really need Scouting."

 

There's lots of other fine programs out there, from JROTC and CAP to Boys & Girls Clubs, 4H, Campfire, etc. to church-based programs like CYO and youth groups, to sports & extracurriculars and schools that offer outdoor leadership programming, to whole schools built on the Expedition Learning/Outward Bound model, to hobby organizations and martial arts programs. I reckon our local chapter of the national mountain bike association offers great fitness, citizenship (includin' involvement of youth in local planning & government), and character (includin' more trail service time than most lads get in scouting).

 

Point is that there's lots of great programs for kids, eh? Thank God! We need all of 'em, to reach all the kids we possibly can, because we're only of long-term interest to a fraction. When I'm with parents, I never talk down other programs. I talk up Scoutin', fer sure, but I encourage all da rest. If a lad leaves Scoutin', I think we should work with him and his family to find another program he can learn and grow in. We should keep in contact with other programs for that purpose, and because they will have boys and girls who leave their programs who might find Scouting to be their thing.

 

Same with us adults, eh? I could never work in 4H. Doesn't have the "zip" for me that Scouting does. But I've introduced some adults to 4H who weren't happy with Scoutin' and found it to be a great place. Yah, and I've recruited a few 4H adults into Scoutin' too.

 

Havin' lots of programs lets us help more adults find ways to serve more kids.

 

Beavah

 

[DeanRx]

Beavah-

 

I agree with your post. I think its very important to talk up scouting while not talking down other youth organizations.

 

Now - not to try and hijack the thread, but...

 

Unfortunately, BSA could reach far more youth if they still had ties with public school systems. The truth is, BSA didn't abadon the public schools as chartered organization partners. Most public school systems will no longer enter into CO agreements with BSA units because of BSA policy regarding certain subsets of the population. Its the public school systems that left BSA because of BSA policies.

 

Not saying that its right, wrong, or neutral - but BSA has tied its own hands in this regard.

 

I say find what works best for your kid and your family.

 

If the bullying issue is TOO big to deal with, but your son really wnjoys scouting otherwise, then look at a different Troop / Pack. If you do choose to change units, led the SM and CC know WHY you are changing (after giving them an opportunity to address the bullying issue of course).

 

One bad apple doesn't speak for all of BSA. You can have terrible service at one Starbucks and it taints your view of the franchise. But, it doesn't mean that ALL Starbucks are ran the same way with the same poor service.

 

Best of Luck, Lisabob - I know its gotta be a tough spot to be in. All you can do is make the issue known to the leadership, if they choose not to act - then you have a choice to make.

 

I do, however, think that society in general has taken an over-reactive stance to bullying / hazing, particularly when it comes to fraternal organizations outside of a school environment. The helicopter parenting style coupled with a post-Columbine world leads folks to be hyper-vigilant / hyper-reactive about such things.

 

Here's the truth - every kid growing up spends some time on both sides of the bully equation... usually first as the victim and then later as the bully. For 99.9% of the populance it is something we learn how to handle and effectively navigate just like a million other interpersonal situations we learn as we grow up. Is it fair, no. Can it cause unpleasant memories, yes. Does it scar you for life, not usually. Can the parents protect, avoid, and shield a child from this type of behavoir forever, good luck on that one.