there are other youth groups

[Lisabob]

In another post I mentioned that persistent bullying has been a problem for the troop my son is part of. In talking with the parent of a boy who left the troop recently because of this issue, she said something along the lines that there are plenty of other youth groups out there where kids get the same moral values as scouting (primarily religious and service-oriented groups), where kids get a positive social experience, and where kids build character, all without the large opportunities for bullying and "Lord of the Flies" behavior to which boy scouting can sometimes be vulnerable.

 

So what makes boy scouts special?

 

Is it our emphasis on the outdoors and camping skills? If that's the key difference, what makes that relevant in the 21st century?

 

Is it our emphasis on youth leadership? Assuming for a moment that most troops actually provide members with that experience, do not other youth programs also offer members opportunities to develop leadership skills?

 

Is it tradition? What makes that tradition salient to today's youth?

 

I'm not knocking boy scouting, because at its best, I think it provides marvelous opportunities for boys to develop their identities and independence and character, as well as a deep appreciation for the natural world. But I admit, there is a proliferation of other youth programs out there, many of which achieve the same underlying purposes as those outlined in the vision and mission statement of the BSA. And I note that the mission and vision statements say nothing about outdoor skills, appreciation of nature, or independence.

 

BSA Mission: "The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law."

 

BSA Vision: "The Boy Scouts of America will prepare every eligible youth in America to become a responsible, participating citizen and leader who is guided by the Scout Oath and Law."

 

 

So, in your view, what makes the BSA unique or special in terms of delivering on those underlying purposes?

 

[Eamonn]

I know before I start that I'm totally unqualified to answer this.

My problem being that I don't belong to any of these other groups and never have.

But as ever I'm not going to let a silly thing like not knowing anything prevent me from adding my two cents.

 

A few of the churches in our area do have youth groups.

Looking at it as an outsider. It seems to cater for a very small select group of very nice very good kids.

They do meet and play games like table tennis, they do go on outings which seem to be all planned by the adults, who go to great lengths to ensure that these good kids are very well chaperoned.

For me these kids are just a lit bit too holy and a little too good.

Back when I was a little fellow in London, my choice of after school activities came down to Scouts or the local boys club. The boys club was all about boxing and I didn't like getting hit.

For his Eagle project OJ did a lot of stuff for the local YMCA. Our YMCA is now a Regional YMCA, it replaced our local small town YMCA. It is housed in a brand new facility. It seems to cater more for senior citizens than young people. The camps and activities that are offered are organized by paid professionals, with no real input from the youth.

 

For me what makes Scouting and the BSA so very special is the passion and the effort that the volunteer leaders put in.

Sure we have some real twits, but kids as a rule know how to avoid people like this and they (The twits) don't remain around for long.

Eamonn.

[Eagledad]

aims and methods are what sets this program apart from the others. I can't think of another that is better or even equal. Sports & church youth groups don't develop the confidence & independence a good troop does.

 

Barry

[resqman]

I would say the biggest difference is Boy Led vs. Adult Led.

 

Most other youth programs are a means to entertain the youth. Their primary goal is to distract the youth with events and activities. Adults plan and direct every aspect.

 

What I see in the way my son's troop is run is the boys are forced to make decisions. They make decisions and then learn from the consequences. They learn how to plan outings, make schedules, and manage budgets. Yes, they learn some outdoor skills but really the outdoors is just a labratory environment away from hovering parents. Some of the events and outings could be attended by other youth groups.

 

I was sitting in on the first years patrol meeting last week. An 11 year boy was making a schedule to ensure that the patrol would wake, make and clean up a meal, travel to a histroic site, tour the facility, make & clean up a meal, tour some more, travel back to a campsite, make and clean up another meal, review previous learned skills, build a fire, and go to bed. He explained his reasoning for the time schedule to the other patrol members who made occasional suggestions. They were contributing members to their activity. Adults were there to drive and check for unsafe activities but primarily the adults were hands off.

 

What sports team, church group, or other organization not only allows but strongly promotes the teaching of planning, organizing and leading your own life to 11 yr olds?

[Lisabob]

I'd agree that the great majority of sports teams do not teach the sort of event planning skills that scouting includes. I'm not certain I'd say the same is true of leadership skills more broadly defined though.

 

Sports teams can teach leadership, though I'm willing to believe that many do not, especially at the rec league level. Many other sorts of youth programs include leadership training as an explicit part of their programs though, particularly those with either a citizenship or entrepreneurial bent to them.

 

 

 

[BDPT00]

Lisabob,

You mentioned the mission and vision statements, and Eagledad mentioned the Aims and Methods.

The outdoors is one of the Methods to achieving our Aims. It doesn't need to to be mentioned in the mission and vision.

It sounds to me like your unit isn't following all of the Methods. One happens to be Ideals. Ideals are mentioned in both the mission and vision statements, so they must be rather important. Our Ideals are stated in the Oath and Law. If your unit has a bullying problem, then your leadership isn't helping to enforce the Oath and Law very well. Your kids raise their right hands and promise to do their best to be Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, and Kind. I don't find bullying to be compatible with any of these Laws. Don't blame the program. Check out your own leadership. Your older Scouts need to learn to be Obedient, and they need to be Brave enough to live up to their promise.

Fix the culture. Don't throw it out.

BDPT00

 

[Eagledad]

sports is not boy led and it generally only develops natural leaders. Scouts done correctly is aleadership development program for all boys. Iwas also a coach while was a scout leader.

 

Barry

[SSScout]

Bullying is not Scouting. It is a fault, a problem. Scouting at it's best is the learning and practice of what is called in modern terms "Servant Leadership". Along with this comes the practice of "Cooperation" and the realization that what benefits you can benefit me: Cooperation.

Bullying exists when, as someone wiser than I said, "good people do nothing". Those good people can be one of the boys or an adult that listens and believes what the boy tells them. The something can be as simple as saying "no". It does take a certain amount of courage, learned by watching adults who act on their convictions and principles (Scout Law?), despite the peer pressure of others.

It needs a Scoutmaster and ASMs and committee that are willing to not just say "boys will be boys". It needs a parent who notices his boy is out of sorts, listens, believes and calls another parent to share the possibility that "we have a problem". Not YOU, but WE.

Then, too, one may meet the parent that refuses to believe that their Scout would ever be so mean. Or perhaps the parent approves of little Johnny's behavior, proves his superiority. Then the Troop parents may have to get together and form another strategy.

It needs the teaching of cooperation rather than the teaching of subjegation. And that is what bullying, in any form, really is, one human subjegating another for purely personal reasons.

Such problems and troubles should never be tolerated. Dealt with in "SM Minutes", personal counseling, parent to parent contact, boy training and boy to boy contact (and no secrecy!), bullying can be overcome and all can learn and benefit from the solution.

 

Try http://www.lifespan.org/services/childhealth/parenting/bullying.htm

 

Good Scouting to you.

 

[gcnphkr]

I don't know of any sports that really teach leadership. Even the team captain rarely actually leads, and then only if his performance is high. Some church and civic groups do, but they also tend to be adult led with little opportunity for leadership. JROTC does teach leadership, but often only directive leadership--with far more issues with bullying.

 

One thing that Boy Scouts receive that rarely occurs in other groups is the wide varieties of activities that the scout experiences. Scouts experience swimming, canoeing, sailing, scuba diving, whiter water boating, climbing, various back country adventures all while learning first aid, firearm safety, survival skills, cooking, leadership of groups from 5-50. Not to mention the exposure he received with over 100 merit badges. To do and learn all of that would require being a part of dozens of groups.

 

Bullying is not a part of scouting. That is a problem in the program which should be corrected.

[IM_Kathy]

having been a girl scout for a few years in my youth, belonged to a high school church youth group, and been on many softball and basketball teams... and as an adult been involved with coaching softball, baseball, basketball, and soccer... and as an adult still help my old church youth group... and as an adult been involved with Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts, and Girl Scouts... I will say the following...

 

sports wise: unless you are one of the best players on the team you will not get much leadership experience there because if you do say something other players will be like "whatever"

 

church group wise: while there are a few chances at leadership, it usually isn't until your last couple of years of high school that you get that chance... and that also depends on the youth group you are in. The one I was involved with the Juniors and Seniors planned and put on retreats for the 7th and 8th graders. And then the seniors and college students planned and put on the retreat for the rest of the high schoolers. we also did a summer service project, but while they did a lot of learning about how to do different skills the planning is done by the adults we volunteer our time and skills to.

 

with scouts: it's as good the child and leaders allow it to be. My girl scouts (9th graders) are the oldest active troop in our unit and they do a ton of helping the younger troops from leading games to teaching skills. My son who was for so many years more of a "follower" has really blossomed in this last year and has done a great job at assistant patrol leader and as a helper with the troop guides that his Scout Master recommended him to be a Den Chief even though he's a year younger than they normally have their scouts be. I've sat in on 1 of the meetings he was working with (actually I was more in the next room because I had so much stuff to do that I needed a big table so I stayed in there but could hear all that went on) and I wish I would've had a den chief that could back when I had a den.

 

the other advantages to scouting is that it is so nationally known and respected... you put down Eagle or Gold Award on a college or job application employers and admission councilors know exactly what all you did to earn such an award. where as if I put down "member of St xxxx youth group" they have no clue.

[Stosh]

That's not always true, I have kids in my church youth group that can put down on their resume that they have served actively on their church council. That carries weight. Maybe not as much as an Eagle scout, but then it still shows initative beyond just hanging out.

 

Stosh

[Eagledad]

yes,those are the same natural leaders who would earn the eagle if they were in scouts. Kathy is talking about the other 97%of the youth.

 

Barry

[Lem]

It seems that there are a lot more organizations and activities for youth today than when I was a kid. But keeping the kids busy isn't always benign is it? I see families become themed around their children's activities, whether it is music, soccer, scouting, Church, horses, etc. The goals of our faith and of scouting and of just plain good parenting are united around common themes. If one family sets its course for Olympic Gymnastics, they can work into that some great lessons that round out the youth and family culture. The same can be said for the other activities I listed above.

 

Scouting is a one hundred year old movement, based on some 100 year old ideas- and some new ones along the way. But the timeless values of stewardship, service, leadership, self-reliance, are embedded into the DNA of our culture and our faith-traditions.

 

It is the old poor skinned cat argument. You can indeed raise children well within the structure and traditions of the Catholic Church, the Boy Scouts, 4-H, Judaism, etc..

 

Pappy chose to go with Young Marines. Maybe Lisabob will find some organization or group that will meet her familys goals and mission.

 

The problem arises I think, when we try to imagine a scouting that should be all things for all kids ( and Scouters).

 

There seems to be, at times, a sense that scouting is "The Way" in an orthodox sense. This is of course silly. Scouting is a way, one of many ways. With good parents, and a tradition and authority structure that gives form to a child's world, they can become good productive citizens. And in many respects, we have seen people come from the seemingly worst case scenarios of childhood and rise in corporate America, in the Church, in politics.

 

Christians would argue that it is through God's grace that we achieve faith and wisdom and charity- not the other way around.

 

I think Lisabob will find her way because she loves her son and seems a pretty tenacious character. The tenacity of parents is our best hope as a people and a nation.

 

Jeff

(This message has been edited by Lem)

[Stosh]

Gotta stay with the thread.

 

97% of the boys Eagle

97% of the youth serve in leadership roles in churches

97% of the youth serve in Student Councils, NHS, etc. as well as 4-H GSA and many other leadership opportunities as well.

 

On the resumes it looks the same. There are more than just Eagle that measures success for the youth in different programs. While Eagle may carry universal understanding, which another poster who worked in HR says doesn't carry as much weight as it once did, there are other opportunities for leadership than scouting. Student council, NHS, etc. Yes, natural leaders rise to the top in all the youth activities, and yes, only about 3% make the top. Scouting is no different. And if only the 3% are being considered, then how prestigeous is Eagle on the resume than the National Merit Scholarship with full-ride college potential. I know of no college offering a full-ride scholarship for getting an Eagle. Even the military only bumps a person one pay level, where NMS starts one out at 2nd Lt regardless of how many nights of camping they may have attained, if any.

 

Success/leadership is measured in many different ways. Scouting is but one.

 

Stosh

[Eagledad]

>>Gotta stay with the thread. >Gotta stay with the thread.