Should we limit leadership to one type of person?

[ScoutMomSD]

as to southpark:

 

I believe that the Fab 5/QESG ARE actually crab people

 

I believe in Towlie

 

I believe in Mr Hanky

 

I believe Cartman is fat

[eagle77]

Let me just correct something. My father wasn't in the state prison, but he would have been if I told him about what happened he would have maimed or killed the guy for doing it.

[GaHillBilly]

As I read this thread, I find that my opinions are all over the place.

 

+ Having worked professionally in a technical services capacity with a variety of camps over a number of years . . . I've seen things that have led me to repeatedly warn friends to check into why folks 'volunteered'. I know of at least one youth (not BSA) camp that is specifically organized with sexual exploitation as a major sub-purpose. (Yes, I "KNOW" it. No, I can't "PROVE" it! The problem is widely known among their neighbors, but they advertise only 'out of state'.)

 

+ Having been in a variety of churches over the years, in various capacities that occasionally put me 'in the know' concerning a variety of crises involving members, I can assure ScoutMomSD that she's being extremely naive to suppose that married men are 'safe'. Many pedophiles marry precisely to gain access. Other pedophiles marry hoping to 'overcome' their deviance.

 

+ My own personal experiences force me to be extremely skeptical about modern claims that "most homosexuals don't target boys". Fortunately, I was never raped or even physically abused . . . but my own experiences with a homosexual uncle, among others, convinces me that many homosexuals do prefer young teen boys, if they can have them somewhat safely.

 

+ At the same time, I know of at least one elementary school teacher who is (a) homosexual and (b) and outstanding teacher.

 

+ I gather that there's no unambiguous evidence that B-P was a 'repressed' homosexual, who worked with boys as an expression of those desires. But I find the claim plausible, if unproven. I suspect that some excellent teachers I had in my teens were also celibate (or at least, mostly celibate) homosexuals.

 

+ I strongly suspect that, today, anyone who's homosexual or strongly 'bi' is far, far less likely to be 'repressed' than similar individuals were 40, 60 or 100 years ago. I do NOT want a 'practicing' homosexual functioning as a primary leader for MY son!

 

+ Both my experiences and orthodox Christian theology persuade me that no one is trustworthy, with respect to sex. I think the BSA's trust-but-verify approach (ie, 2 deep) is well warranted and I have recommended it to at least three groups of church leaders.

 

+ On the other hand, some of ScoutMomSD's remarks imply that women leaders would be a better choice. I'm highly skeptical of that. I do think that women are far less likely to be aggressive predators than men are. But, I know personally of too many cases where women were 'passive predators' to be all that trusting of them. One single mom in our own troop constantly wears low cut attire. I haven't seen her belly button by way of her neck yet, but it's only a matter of time. I remember all too well how such views, even of "old women" affected me as a teen. I also remember how guys who got 'taught' by the proverbial 'older woman' were far less likely to complain, than they were to brag. But, I consider such 'passive predation' extremely harmful, if perhaps not as destructive as the aggressive predation of a homosexual pedophile.

 

+ The only bottom line here, in my opinion, is that parents should be cautious about ALL leaders associated with their children, but that it's foolish and 'simple' to assume that a simple metric (only married, only married with kids in the program, only hetero, only single, etc.) will keep things safe.

 

GaHillBilly

 

[frank10]

Thank God my son is almost old enough to join tigers in two years and can save me from this creepy life I've been living for the last 25 plus years since I first signed on as an ASM.

 

 

[ElyriaLeader]

ScoutMomSD, maybe it's not the "creepy" ones you should be worrying about, after they find the couple with the 65 bodies buried in their back yard, and the TV newsperson asks the neighbor "so what were they like" they almost always answer with "they never bothered anyone, and were such nice people, the perfect neighbors" that runs along the lines of "gee that Steven King book can't be scary....it's got such a pretty cover"

Evmori said it right.

"I think we should limit leaders to one type of person! The type of person who wants to work with kids, meets the BSA requirements & is willing to take the necessary training to help understand the program they signed up for! All others can go away!"

 

[Beavah]

Yah, I couldn't lay hands on my statistics stuff, eh? Got it around here somewhere.

 

Suffice to say many of the other posters are right. Being married with kids doesn't reduce the risk of being a predator much if at all. One of our local branches of a major denomination employed a husband-wife team who were conductin' threesomes as youth ministers. Never with their own kids, mind, but others' kids were fair game.

 

I think what's hard about really bad people is that they mimic the behaviors of really good people. There are a lot of really good people in Scouting and other youth work, eh? In a lot of ways, many of the very best scouters I've met were single folks or married-without-kids who had the time to give, and gave freely to all without payin' special attention to their own child.

 

If we want to keep out da really bad people, we can't look at the things they do the same as really good people - give their time, show interest in each kid, etc. We have to look at what they do differently from really good people, like attempt to isolate youth, break down good habits and resistance rather than build 'em up.

 

Interestingly, in da few sad cases I've been involved in, it was not parents who recognized a "creepy" adult who was harming kids, eh? It was one of these long-time no-kids-in-da-program fellows who caught the signals and took action. They had enough experience payin' attention to different children and havin' a sense for good relationships that they were able to recognize something that didn't feel right far more quickly.

 

Beavah

 

[OldGreyEagle]

I forgot who, or in which thread, a poster proposed banning white married men with children from being scout leaders because in the last 20 years the greatest percentage of scout leaders convicted of sexually abusing youth were white married men with children, it has been a while.

 

Another thought is, people are free to have the thoughts they have and if they think its Creepy, it is their right and in todays world where trust is not often found, I can understand the thought process. I know when I started off with the Venturing Crew, when I would call youth homes, especially female youth homes, I learned quickly to introduce myself as Mr Greyeagle from the Venturing Crew and was Mary Lou home. I know from the reactions I got, even with an introduction of my name until the parents got to know me. If parents are cautious, I can accpe that, they should be. And I wouldnt think it odd if a parent asked me a lot of questions about why I scout. As Ed often says, I think it was Ed, if you've got nothing to hide, you have no problems.

[SR540Beaver]

My SPL son is about 15.75 and is two MB's and an Eagle project away from earning Eagle. While he still has two years left that he plans on staying in the troop, OA and staffing camp before aging out, he will most likely be getting a job and will be able to drive himself where he needs to go. I can hardly wait as I can finally do some additional scouting I want to do as opposed to everything being at the unit level. I don't intend on not working at the unit level anymore, I just might taper off some so I can do some more WB and IOLS staffing, hoepfully some NYLT staffing and bump up my Campmastering. I might even venture into some District stuff. If people think I'm creepy for staying involved when my son is out, that is their problem. Scouting has given me a lot and I have an obligation to continue giving back.

[Gunny2862]

Look the kid is 14, I've got parents of kids who aren't old enough to become Cub Scouts yet who are asking if I'm still going to be around to be the Scoutmaster for their son.

 

What do I have to do to satisfy ScoutMomSD if I decided to stay on after the next four years,

talk the wife into another child? With HWMBO approaching a certain age, she's not going to buy into it. Especially after the high number of miscarriages we experienced, when younger, to get the one we got.

If we got to that point(my son not being in Scouting as a youth), I would have been working with youth(in Scouting) for more than five years. I've been working with youth in other contexts for more than fifteen years already. Is a new leader with no track record safer in that context?

 

You want Creepy, look at the folks who aren't just normally concerned but want to whisper pedophile behind the back of every man in sight.

 

 

[eagle77]

Let's see, canoeing in the boundry waters, camping in the florida keys, going outdoors and showing the scouts (our future) how to enjoy it without destroying it. I wish more single men would get off there duffs and stop watching the boob tube and start caring about tomorrow. Because they are to closed minded to do it doesn't mean that I and others like me have to. Besides that it is a blast!!!

[CA_Scouter]

"said she found it "creepy" that adult men and women who do not have kids in the unit are involved in Scouting at any level."

 

That STATEMENT is what is CREEPY.

 

 

 

[eagle90]

Another "creepy one" here. I went all thru the program, earned Eagle at 14, and for the most part, ran the troop while in high school, as the SM was very ineffective. After four years in college, I returned and the troop was on the verge of folding, since none of the parents would volunteer to be SM. So I said I would do it for a while. This was in 1973. Still doing it! And if I must say so, the troop has thrived ever since.

 

Perhaps the creepy ones are people who think like Scoutmom SD, and see the bogeyman in every closet. I guess in her world there should also be no single teachers, police officers, youth center workers, orphange workers, Park Rangers, and all other professions and avocations that work with youth. She had better lock her son up in the house and never let him go out. Then he would be truly safe fromn all the creepy people.

 

Dale

[Bob White]

Should we restrict people from being leaders simply for not being a parent or not having a child in the program? No

 

Should we limit leadership to to one kind of person? Absolutely?

Units should exclude people unwilling to follow the scouting program.

[Eagle92]

I am going to toot my own horn for a minute or so. I have no kids in the program yet. But i've been a leader for 16 years now aqnd I know I've made a difference.

 

As soon as I turned 18, I became an ASM, with the formal investitutre done at my ECOH 5 months after my 18th birthday. I stayed with my old unit for 5 years, being a role model, counselor, and "big brother" to those in my troop. When I left the troop to be a DE, the troop threw a party for me with guys who had aged out with me and while I was an ASM com,ing pack tot he party. I also had guys still climbing the trail want to knwo when I could come back for their ECOH becasue they wanted me their. Heck one guy deliberately waited 7 months to have his ECOH so I could be there. Another one of my Eagles waited 2 months for me to be there.

 

While a DE I started several packs and troops; recruited countless Cubs and Scouts; and recruited leaders to make a difference. Even though I left my district for 4 years, when I came back as a volounteer I still see some of the boys I recruited as CS. I still see leaders who are giving tirelessy of their time, energy, and money to provide a quality program that I recruited. And yes some of those leaders do not have youth in the program anymore. I feel alot of pride when I go to one of my units and see a young man that I recruited way back when finally complete the trail to Eagle. When I see these outstanding young men, i know I made a difference.

 

Yes I admit I am selfish as to the reasons why I am still involved in Scouting after all these years. Scouting is my drug of choice for a variety of reasons. I enjoy the outdoors. I enjoy making a difference in someone's life. I enjoy being a positive role model. Heck I feel like a kid again when I am camping, doing work with the OA, etc. etc.

 

Also Scouting has been very good to me and I feel I need to give back. I've been to a NOAC, a national jamboree and a world jamboree. I've done 50 milers in Canada, the Gulf of Mexico, and FL. I did 7 years of summer camp staff as an adult without kids in the program. And I did the European Camp Staff Program. Scouting has been very good, and I feel obligated to give back.

[diogenes]

I'll work the logic from the reverse angle here:

 

If only Scout parents can be leaders, then:

 

Childless couples (for medical reasons or whatnot) are left out, even though they would have the extra time to help. Forget about the old teacher's line of "I have hundreds of kids... my students".

 

Forget single people, young or old. They might as well just go party with their free time instead of giving back to the community / Scouts.

 

People with only girls (I'm in that category so far). I guess they have to go try to overcome the GS creepy man rule.

 

People with young children (I'm here too). I guess we don't want leaders young enough to keep up with the Scouts when they want to do the 50 miler and stuff the old school way.

 

Retired people. You know the ones with the time, resources, and experience to really help the program. Maybe not spry enough to keep up the the 50 milers anymore, but could sure tell you tons of lessons learned teh hard way and save you the grief.

 

Get rid of the JASM. Or the ASM who recently Eagled and aged out of the youth side but still has time to lead and motivate other Scouts. Oh, and having the skills fresh in his mind so he can teach the others isn't needed either.

 

 

 

Need I go on....

 

 

As others have said, the only requirement should be people motivated to help advance Scouting while following BSA and Charter Org rules. Parents often have the immediate motivation, but you need a constant foundation to keep the unit alive and functioning on a steady basis regardless of which Scouts come and go.

 

Personally, I get a little concerned with the idea of key players (SM, COR, CC, advancement committee) being parents because of the temptation for conflict of interest, but good leaders can overcome this without too much fuss. Right now, all of the listed positions except CC (me) are parents. I have another committeee member who stayed on even though all of her sons have completed and aged out. All my leaders love Scouting and we're still small so we don't have any problems with conflicts of interest. We're also all on the same page regarding what we expect of the boys (we're all neo-old school) so there are no doubts about the sons advancing unless they've earned it.

 

Guess you'll just have to put me in this new-fangled creepy pile, then. In the meantime I'll keep an eye out for the real predators since I'm trained for that from my job working with the state's worst juveniles.