By the numbers

[SR540Beaver]

GaHillBilly,

 

LNT is not law, it is a choice. Pretty simple. You can use it all the way, none or anywhere inbetween. Circumstances usually dictate the level.

 

Think about it. We've had one person here who thought they way to make men out of boys was to teach them to kill an animal with their hands and to cut down trees. Imagine that you have a favorite camping place. A beautiful wooded area with a rock strewn stream and all sorts of wildlife in it. You tell the troop all about it and they decide to camp there. When they arrive, there is nothing but stumps, no wildlife and a muddy eroded stream. Extreme example? Yeah. But there are people out there who wouldn't think twice about doing it. There one weekend of "pleasure" means that no one else gets to enjoy it for years to come if ever.

[Stosh]

If cub programs are somewhat successful because they have adults running it, is it a valid assumption then the boys can't used that model because boys can't run it?

 

While I may be constantly perceived as boy scout bashing as it has been referred to in the past, maybe if one were to accept the premise that if it works for the cubs with adults leading, it can in fact work for the boys with boys leading. After all isn't that one of the major goals of scouting? Of course if adults always have to run the program and they won't teach leadership to the boys, then I would 100% agree, the cub program dyanmics of small groups being lead by qualified adult leadership, then it won't work in the boy program because the boys are not allowed to be qualified leadership of their own patrols.

 

Yes, there's a learning curve, and I'm willing to concede that not many adults work their boys through that curve and even if they go through the motions, they do not trust the boys to lead themselves with the same autonomy an adult would be allowed to run a cub den.

 

I do see a variance of quite a large proportion between developing leaders of small groups and developing Eagles of rank/skill advancement.

 

Maybe it all goes back to the expectations. Webelos boys cross over expecting to become true leaders and learn meaningful leadership skills, and when that doesn't happen, it's off to something else. I have found that many of these 11 year-olds are a lot more saavy than we as adults give them credit for.

 

Stosh

[Lem]

One example that comes to mind is football as it is played in the Middle School and high school years. There is a team captain, or captains, and on the teams I played for the coaches usually gave some discretion to the captains to run options and the like. Also- a good deal of the camaraderie and morale stemmed from the captains and other leaders amongst the lineman and special teams.

 

But you couldn't expect the players to put themselves through the rigors of two a day preseason practices. This grueling training regime was met out by adult coaches.

 

But by the start of the season, all the training was pretty much conducted by the captains.

 

Sorry to bring up a model that relies on competition. But team and individual sports work because humans enjoy competing- even in purely playful fashion.

 

And where in the scout laws is competition over-ruled- Is it unfriendly- unhelpful, unkind, unclean, discourteous, cowardly, untrustworthy, disloyal, unhelpful, disobedient, uncheerful, wasteful, irreverent to be competitive? It seems that it is a universal human trait, whether in Native America culture, or European and the rest, that humans love to compete.

 

To suggest that scouting fulfills the need for boys to seek sanctuary from competition is bizarre and not in keeping with the ideals of Baden Powell. For goodness sake, I have seen early scout manuals that demonstrate the methods for scouts to fight with quarter staffs. You can't get more competitive than martial arts. And what fun!!

 

How on earth to you expect boys to learn archery or shooting and not want to compete against each other- I mean come on!!

 

Hunting, trapping, fishing, exploring, all involve results. What scout is the most observant of his surroundings? What scout is the best tracker, the best shot, the best fire starter in a wet and cold wood, the most safety minded, the most daring, the best knots man, the strongest rower, etc?

 

Look to martial arts for a suggestion of how to matriculate youth. They earn degrees, and they more they matriculate up the ladder through the assessment of skills, the more instruction and leadership they participate in. It is highly ritualized, and the scout laws of obedience and the like are very much present.

 

I maintain that if BSA offered special training to scouts who exhibit superior skills and talents, it would be enticing to boys. Boys want to be a part of an elite group- or at least know that they there are such groups out there.

 

TO deny this in our human nature is folly.

 

Jeff

 

 

[TwoXForr]

Lem it is obvious to me that you have not particpated much is Scouting, never seen the boys pull a Klondike derby sled or compete in a First Aid meet. Some pretty fierce competition takes place.

 

But it is also obvious that you have never seen a boy grow and mature from a troubled youth to a good leader and friend to others. From surely and selfish to helpful and one who watches out for those younger than himself. What you probably see a kids holding back others from truely excelling I see as an oppurtunity for the one who excel to coach, teach and assit the ones who dont get it as easily.

 

You show me a kid who can do a complicated skill I will be impressed, you show me a kid who can teach a complicated skill and I will be blown away.

 

Yes competition creates leaders and fine skills. But so does the scouting method of brotherhood and morales.

 

Scouts and Leaders have a limited amount of time together, no practices mandated by a schedule, if a boy does not want to come to a meeting or is involved in a school event wheather it be homework, band or football that might take priority for a while, for a season or so. But Boy Scouts is a year round activity that goes on for years if the boy is intrested. Scouts is also different in that we do our mundane tasks such as cleaning, cooking and others and try and treat each other according to the Scout Oath and Law.

 

I have been involved in competive sports, they taught me about teamwork and some hard life lessons. I have also studied martial arts, and although it does teach you discipline and self control it by no means gives you a complete moral compass.

 

Scouting is the whole picture, some competition, some mentoring, some life skills, confidence that I can take care of myself in a variety of situations (first aid, emergancy prepardness, wilderness survival, persnonal management, personal fitness and the list goes on and on)

 

If a boy wants to excel he will, I know some boys that have maxed out on the number of Palsms they could recieve by thier 18th birthday. I know some that have strived for every nature related merit badge they can get. Some boys get in the Order of Arrow and are dedicated to service. One kid I know trys to beat his own Mile Swim time every year at camp, while trying to get as many other kids to go for it with him as well.

 

I am not saying your "extreme competition" idea has no merits, but with everything else Scouting is trying to do, there is just not the time for it, at least in my opinion.

[eagle77]

Lem,

If all life is to you is competition then so be it. Scouting isn't a santuary from competition it just isn't the primary goal of it. That is where sports comes in. If you are suggesting that all we should be doing as adults is teach how to compete and beat the other, I think that is real shallow. I am sure there may be camps or councils that offer certain competitions, but it just is.nt the primary goal. Though there are some things that can be learned from competing, is that all there is to life? Maybe all that you feel life is about beating out the competition. How about living with some type of morals and service to others without competing with them? That is the winning that comes from being a boy scout. A scout learns to do his best, not beating the competition to be best. I challenge my boys to compete not only with themselves but with nature. Winter campouts, canoeing in the boundry waters, lighting a fire without matches,be a good citizen in the community, and doing for others. I will tell you this I would much rather have a neighbor that knows or understands what being a good citizen is, then one who has nothing but medals and ribbons on his wall and knows nothing about living with his fellow man.

[Gold Winger]

Lem, I don't know when you played high school sports but captains are little but figure heads today.

 

As for martial arts, traditional martial artists hate the Americanized belt system. Red belt with a stripe, red belt with two stripes, etc.. That's a function of American life where children have to be rewarded continuously.

 

In any case, Boy Scouting has had your reward system for years. Ranks and merit badges. Elite? They've had that for years with Exploring, Venture Patrols and Venturing and the possibility to move on up to be in charge.

 

Maybe a big part of the problem is that 12 year olds are being forced to become Patrol Leaders but are unprepared for it so when they reach an age in which they could be an effective leader, they don't want the job because they only remember what a hassle it was.

[Stosh]

Or, maybe if they were trained to be leaders (i.e. PL's) rather than just Target First Class the first year, when they are 12, they'd be ready to take on a PL position. After all, Be Prepared is there for a reason. Maybe we ought to focus more on leadership skills even though they are not part of the rank advancement process sometime well before they have to demonstrate leadership skills in an Eagle project.

 

I've never been a fan of NSP being lead by a Webelos, but I think every scout in a NSP ought to be trained along with rank advancement. To often we focus on TFC skills and forget about the leaderships skills until they magically turn some arbitrary age, reach an arbitrary rank and then dump them with leadership responsibilities without any hands-on leadership skill development. I'd bail under those conditions too.

 

Stosh