By the numbers

[shortridge]

GaHillBilly wrote:

 

"Leave No Trace" is dishonest BS. Any of you with even minimal outdoor experience know this. My skills pale in comparison to what 1st Class Scouts learned 70 years ago, but I'll guarantee you I can follow the "trace" of your patrol of 6 boys, no matter how "conservation minded" they are, everywhere they WALK, unless it's on rock or pavement. The only way to "leave no trace", is to stay home. Many elements of the modern environmental movement see mankind as an infection of Mother Earth, and this belief has trickled into mainstream jargon. The "Leave no trace" slogan is only one example. Fortunately, it's possible to pledge "The Outdoor Code" without crossing your fingers, but BSA needs to dump LNT as EITHER dishonest or ELSE incompatible with Scouting.

 

GaHillBilly: I would respectfully but strongly disagree with your interpretation of LNT. I'm also sorry to hear about Lem's daughter's experience with the raving lunatic of a Girl Scout leader. Some people do take issues to extremes, on both sides of the proverbial aisles.

 

As to your statement above: It's impossible for any human being, even holed up in a house, to leave no trace of their passing on the planet. The Leave No Trace program does not suggest that it is, and only a very literal reading of the slogan by someone with very little understanding of the program would suggest that. Rather, it's a series of best practices, if you will, for lessening your impact.

 

I think the Leave No Trace folks themselves put it best:

 

"Leave No Trace is an national and international program designed to assist outdoor enthusiasts with their decisions about how to reduce their impacts when they hike, camp, picnic, snowshoe, run, bike, hunt, paddle, ride horses, fish, ski or climb. The program strives to educate all those who enjoy the outdoors about the nature of their recreational impacts as well as techniques to prevent and minimize such impacts. Leave No Trace is best understood as an educational and ethical program, not as a set of rules and regulations."

 

Personally, I love campfires - I still haven't adjusted to backpacking stoves. There's something elemental about crackling flames. But I'm not going to light one up when I don't need to. That's the kind of thing that LNT teaches, not eco-extremism.

[eagle77]

Lem,

I understand and I agree with a good amount of what you are saying. I just think that by doing this you would open up another can of worms. Look at some of the other posts on this forum. Activities, requirements, and other things seem to differ from one troop, council, camp, or patrol. Yet we all work out of the same handbook, merit badge pamphlet, etc. I am sorry but I guess Im stupid for only expecting the best out of my boys. There is nothing that I was ever told that said I had to be the best or excellent at everything I did. Strive to improve where I can, yes. But the best at everything, no.

 

Jblake,

I know of troops in my area that have the same problem you are stating. There are boys that have been to the same camp over and over, they know the rocks by their first name. As a scoutmaster I do not run the PLC, but I do advise them on how the program needs to be spread out for the scouts of different levels. High Adventure type trips of both the weekend and weeks long variety. I have been scoutmaster for 8 years and in the last 7year I have taken all of the scouts in the troop to summer camp, except for 1 this pass year that had a church camp the same week. The boys arent bored because we continue to make sure the troop is going to different places and that these places offer enough variety to accommodate all age groups. I have a troop of 35 boys. Every other year in addition to summer camp is a high adventure camp. So part of that goes with what type of leader the troop has. If you are willing to only go to the same camp or type of camp year after year then your program will suffer. Without variety the scouts will just get bored.

 

 

[Stosh]

I, for one, am 100% in favor of outsiders commenting on the forum. Too many times we get into some ingrown thinking that outsiders can add a fresh perspective from outside-the-box.

 

eagle77: that is why my boys don't run their PLC according to BSA guidelines. They do not have to do everything together as a troop. If 3 patrols want to go to summer camp and the other patrol wants to go for a week of kayaking, they are allowed to do so. The PLC supports patrol activities, not direct them with votes. If one cub den (boy patrol) wants to visit the local fire departement (BWCA) the night of the pack (troop) meeting (Summer camp), there's no big deal, why should there be in the Boy Scout program?

 

Cubs seem to do better at focusing on a wide variety of different progams (Tiger -> Webelos) and not run amok. Why can't the BS program do the same thing?

 

Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

[eagle77]

Lem,

I could care less whether you are in scouting or not. But how can you comment on a program you haven't done or are in.

[skeptic]

Lem, the reason for asking was simply to get a better perspective as to where you may be getting your personal thoughts. If you are not directly involved, as was just noted, then your ideas are not necessarily based on practical use within the actual program. There is nothing wrong with outside comments and observations; but too often they are based on incorrect assumptions or bias from outside the program. I think you might find some of your ideas have already been tried. Others perhaps will be. When someone does, and reports back on their levels of success, it should be useful.

 

Thank you for clarifying your position. And certainly continue to participate. Just try to keep an open mind, and please try to comment on what works from your perspective as well.

[perdidochas]

Eagle wrote:

 

"I could care less whether you are in scouting or not. But how can you comment on a program you haven't done or are in. "

 

 

True. For example, at one point Lem says that Scouts are to "do their best." Well, that's not a Boy Scout motto, but rather, is the Cub Scout motto (where it is age appropriate).

[Lem]

I didn't bring up the Do your best stuff. I wouldn't have. I don't like it. I know that the oath says DUTY.

 

But if you want to have a litmus or screening test to join in on this forum go ahead scouter. I'm game.

 

Jeff

[eagle77]

JBlake,

I don't run the troop by BSA guidelines all the time either. My point was more to the idea that the boys have the say, and variety helps to keep all happy. Never had an instance where any patrol older or younger wanted to do anything instead of what was discussed by the PLC and I have told them that I would have no problem supporting it either. The only hard thing is that I find it very difficult to push patrol activities. I do remember the good times on a patrol campout as a scout myself, alott of fun and learning. But today with all the legal issues out there it is very hard to do. Not just BSA's dumbing down of the program but the changes in society and laws makes it difficult to let the boys go. That and helicopter parents afraid if Johnny is out of site for 5 minutes. I think this is especially more a problem in some areas of the country then in others. I have always told my scouts "it is your program" and here are some of the things that you can do now run with it.

 

Bill

[eagle77]

He's right the Cub scout motto is "Do your best", the boy scout oath is "On my honor I will do my best" Lem just isn't satified with doing your best. His opinion, I don't agree with the concept, but he is entitled to that. Lem what I meant in my last post was isn't what your doing kind of like somebody saying they could fix my engine in the car, but they have never seen an engine?I listen to all in or out of scouting. I just thought maybe you were new to it.

 

Bill

[Stosh]

I agree there are a lot of legal eagle adults out there ready to jump all over BSA for letting their boys out on a patrol activity, but does that mean we are to abandon the focus of BSA on developing, mature, independent, young adults that can take care of themselves once mom and dad are out of sight?

 

I guess I'm in favor of helping the boys grow up even if it means taking a risk, after all, isn't that what growing up is all about? :^)

 

I guess if I have to go to jail for something, it would be okay for helping a young man grow up.

 

Stosh

[TwoXForr]

 

 

 

"Maybe you have articulated the reason why so many scout troops look and feel like the Special Olympics."

 

That statement alone makes me angry.

 

We had a special needs kid in my troop growing up, what did he get out of the program, lifelong skills that help him still cope with the world. What did us kids get out it, learning how to deal with a person with his unique and problematic needs. It changed him and us, both for the better.

 

 

 

 

 

I am not an all or nothing guy. I suggested that my ideas be an option, a choice, for those boys who want to go farther than the bare minumum requirements.

 

Why does the scouting movement have to be a Homogenious organization? Isn't it enough that it has a total Monopoly on the Scouting Movement in our Nation?

 

I think the same problems intrinsic in public schooling have been infecting scouting.

 

Egality at the sake of excellence.

 

And it is you who are articulating an all or nothing argument, not I.

 

 

[eagle77]

Don't know if I would go that far. But you are right. Not sure if I'm sending the right message to the scouts. "It's okay to break the rules (law)". Kind of sends that me me type attitude that some have today. Do agree though it really kills the "Patrol Method" as Green Bar Bill taught me.

 

Bill

[GaHillBilly]

For those who've suggested I'm being unreasonable by taking LNT "literally", I would make a counter suggestion: please take the time to actually and carefully READ the "principles" of LNT. You can do so here:

http://www.lnt.org/programs/principles.php

 

For those of you who won't bother, here are a few:

 

=> "Preserve the past: examine, but do not touch, cultural or historic structures and artifacts." "Leave rocks, plants and other natural objects as you find them." In other words, "the raving lunatic of a Girl Scout leader" was actually dead on target!

 

=> "Campfires can cause lasting impacts to the backcountry. Use a lightweight stove for cooking and enjoy a candle lantern for light."

Please note: this is not a suggestion that fires be used only when it is safe and will cause minimal or acceptable disturbance. This is a polite COMMAND: No campfires!

 

And GW, as usual all subtleties elude you. Your post nothwithstanding, I did not suggest as an alternative to LNT its opposite, 'Leave every trace' or rather 'Make a big mess'. Rather, I suggested LNT's "contrary", which is "Leave some trace" . . . which after all is the only possible option. But, I have all my life, beginning long before LNT was ever heard of, tried to do what I teach, which is "Leave Minimal Trace"!

 

Supposedly, a "Scout is trustworthy".

 

But, LNT is either the statement of radical environmentalists -- for which there is good evidence -- OR it is a sort of Madison Avenue dishonesty "Scouts are the BEST organization ever" to which we have become inured, but which is nonetheless dishonest.

 

I would have no problem with LMT, "Leave Minimal Trace". That is, after all, just what the Outdoor Code promises. But I dislike all dishonesty for the sake of more marketing friendly language, whether it's mis-attributing the "Scouting is a game with . . ." quote, or claiming that Scouts support LNT!

 

I do think Scouts, Cub or not, SHOULD "do their best" to be "trustworthy" and a Scout who camps and also claims to LNT, is NOT doing "his best" to be "trustworthy"!

 

Words matter. They shape thoughts and concepts and communication. Dishonesty devalues them . . . just as it has devalued merit badges and Eagle ranks.

 

 

GaHillBilly

[Eagledad]

>>Cubs seem to do better at focusing on a wide variety of different progams (Tiger -> Webelos) and not run amok. Why can't the BS program do the same thing?

[eagle77]

Ga MillBilly,

I agree LNT stinks of being way too far the other way. I can understand though why this would happen. A few years back while out on a trek at northern tier each crew is asked to clean up the site they stay in (if it needs it). You would not believe all the trash and garbage that our crew alone brought back. From what I could tell it didn't look like Boy Scouts had done it but just the general public going out there and destroying it. When I was a scout it was The Outdoor Code (which is still there) and project S.O.A.R. save our american resourses.

 

How can we as scout leaders tell our scouts that unless we really need to No fire. I mean unless there is some kind of restriction for drought or wind, this is something every scout looks forward to on a camping trip.

 

I tell the scouts the same thing my scoutmaster told me, Leave the site as good as if not better then you found it.

 

Bill