By the numbers

[OldGreyEagle]

I was confused when this thread started, and now even more so. Who says winning in scouts is about getting Eagle or AOL? As far as I understand it, the goal in the advancement program is go get every scout to First Class, after that its up to the scout. The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law, nothing about making Eagle or AOL.

 

As it has been comemnted many times, no one ever willingly walked away from a good time. So, if numbers are dropping, then the members are not having a good time. Now, the defininition of what constitutes a good time may vary, but the program is malleable enough (I hope) to be attractive to most. I have to echo that getting new adults is getting harder.

[skeptic]

So Lem, how are you involved in helping possibly solve these problems you say are so prominent? Going back and looking at your posts, you indicate you were a scout in the 80's, but now you don't get them.

 

Sounds to me you are not really involved, only want to stir the pot somehow. Perhaps I am wrong; but it surely looks that way to me.

 

Yes, leaders can be more fit; but that is not the only criterion, as has been noted already. And, in many troops, the older leaders have stepped back to be more counselors and turned the physical elements over to younger, more capable men. We need both types in the program.

 

Over the years, I have had a few instances where so called fit individuals, both adults and youth, have come on backpacks with us and not able to "hack it", even though they would look down at scouts as being weak and lame. I would wager that a large percentage of sports oriented individuals could not make it on a fifty miler, or possibly even a five miler. And once there, they would not be able to fend for themselves as well as most of the first year scouts.

 

Quit trying to compare non-similar programs. And open your eyes to the realities that most people are not regular "winners". Failure or average is far more real. Scouts say, "On my honor, I will do my best". That is where we should be putting our emphasis. And yes, we can do better, which we all recognize.

[Eagledad]

>>Maybe the emphasis on accomplishment of certain measurements isn't the route to go. Is wearing the SPL patch the ultimate goal of leadership? Maybe the JASM is the ultimate goal of leadership. Only a few get to wear those.

[Eagle92]

Another reason for the decline in Scouting may be some of the professionals and their quest to meet their memberships goals. The official stats may be off from the get go becasue of this problem. Ok I'll say it GHOST UNITS. How many of you have encountered those before?(This message has been edited by eagle92)

[Lem]

Comparing Boy Scouts to other youth programs is not invalid. Especially when you fellas keep talking about making scouting "fun". If you are looking for what boys find fun, then look, and don't convince yourself that everything other than scouting is nothing to learn from.

 

Obviously Baden Powell and Daniel Beard and Ernst Seton got their ideas from places other than scouting. The military comes to mind. And they certainly were pretty creative and for a time at least pretty divergent on some of there views about how best to make the movent go forward.

 

If you think the program isn't broken, then I guess that is the camp you're in. But if scouting isn't broken now- then maybe it was never right to begin with. And I don't think that is true.

 

I think that allowing scouts to compete in core events and to form inter district/council and national leagues of scout-like sports would be a way of insprirng adults and kids to get involved. Geo-caching is pretty popular, so are exterme sports, triatholons, archery, and shooting.

 

If you offered cash prizes and scholarship prizes for scouts who achieve in these contests you might get interest.

 

COMPETITION not as mandate but as an option. Let the boys choose if they want to compete. They might surprise you.

 

And you might build numbers and vitality in your program.

 

 

 

 

[hot_foot_eagle]

jblake wrote:

>>Hmmm, I noticed an emphasis on competition and accomplishment that seems to run through the thread. If scouting is a progression of development, why is it there are ending points in the middle of the process? AOL and Eagle, being the two biggies. But then after the boys have achieved these two milestones, then it's time to quit.

[TwoXForr]

So Lem correct me if I am wrong but what you want to create or encourage is a subset of Scouting, that is involved with competition of either sports (soccer, baseketball) or possibly intertroop teams that compete in Scout skills competion.

 

So in addition to troop outings, and scout meetings where we are trying to teach skills, citizenship, and a moral code you want to add another compentent.

 

Why not it should only take an hour a week.

[eagle77]

Lem,

Let me see if I can get you to understand what I am saying. First off I never said that boys or girls cant learn from other activities. But you seem to come off with the idea the only way that they can have fun is to compete. Scouting already does have different types of competition in it already at Klondikes and certain Camporees. Our troop is even running a patrol contest right now, the prize is a special party and they will be the first patrol with the new tents we will be purchasing in the spring. This competition is based on advancement, attendance (activities and meetings), uniform inspection, and skill demonstrations.

With how strapped certain councils are now for money I dont know where you figure to get prizes and scholarships. Anythings possible though. I want to tell you something. As my son was growing up he played baseball, soccer, and ice hockey. In addition to being a Cub Scout and Boy Scout. Now my son left scouting to play more ice hockey, the times were demanding and he felt it would take away from his scouting. For everything he did I offered to help out with whatever I could.

One year while playing baseball I was the asst. coach. There was this one boy who came to all the practices, missed only one game, but never got to play the whole game. Before one of our games I received a call from his coach that he would not be able to be there and that I would be running the show. For that game I let that young boy play all 6 innings without having to sit. Now we lost the game, not because of anything that this boy did or didnt do. He had no errors, grounded out, and walked twice. Do you know how many parents called the coach and blamed the loss on the fact that this boy played the whole game? One parent said I let my own son in for the whole game and sat her son so that this, as she called him loser could play. Well my son didnt play one single inning, he was home sick. My point here is although we may have lost the game I and that little boy won though. There is that winning feeling you get, not because you were the best but because you did the right thing. Like it or not there is a difference. Do you think that I want to go through that again? I can see scoutmasters building super patrols to beat out the others at whatever competition you can come up with. Because to these type of people winning is all there is. To me that type of winning is very secondary. Helping to produce good honest citizens to me is the winning in this game. Whether a scout makes Eagle or not, for those years that he was a scout at least he was exposed to a program that asks him to do your best not be the best.

 

[Lem]

Good question TwoX4,

 

Maybe, since we are encouraging the boys to be a boy-lead or run organization, we make this a function of the will of the patrol. If a patrol were to be given the choice or the option to form a competitive team of say marksmanship, or archery, or some test of climbing or kayaking skills (I did suggest keep them activities that relate to scouting), then let the boys choose for themselves.

 

If there were real rewards for excellence in a skill, and not just a MB that says I passed a proficiency test (if even that), then I think you might tap into a vein of youthful enthusiasm.

 

Why not have a national competition that posts the scores of all scouts participating. Who can demonstrate all the knots the quickest? What scout has the fasted Morse code speed as a ham radio operator? Who is the best shot in archery and rifle?

 

These can be positive things for scouts to be aware of. They can learn just how proficient they can become in an area.

 

But hey. It was only a suggestion (like being physically strong (and or fit)). I thought you guys said that there is nothing wrong with the way scouting is being conducted- so why change it?

 

In terms of time? Let them do it on the own patrol time- get a parent sponsor- If they want it enough they will make time.

 

Jeff

 

[Lem]

Eagle 77,

 

I have a closet of nightmare stories from my childhood of competition and father's living vicariously through their sons run amuck as well. We all probably do to some extent. (Not to minimize your valiant efforts to be a great father to your son).

 

But why not allow scouts to have a sense of quantification in terms of how what they are doing relates to other scouts, whether it is physical, mental, or moral accomplishments? Scouting seems to bandy about the idea of QUALITY for its scouters- and the measure is both numbers and following the game plan of training.

 

Why not allow scouters and scouts to have the opportunities to know nationally what other scouts are proficient at? Is this so bad?

 

Is there room for a Scout of the Year, or a troop or pack of the year? Could a measure of interesting criteria be generated that National could give out awards for the best archers, knot tiers, etcetera??

 

I think that "Doing your best" can turn into a bromide for mediocrity. "I did my best coach." "Ok, well today your best is a 24 minute mile. Great kid! Now lets work towards shaving off a minute by next meeting." Isn't that reasonable? Yes!- It is actually in the BSA Handbook that scouts should improve their fitness scores. So why not improve their scores in other area? For instance, skills like tent pitching and fire making can always be improved upon, so can navigation. Why can't scores be given for proficiencies in these areas beyond basic (very basic) knowledge.?

 

 

In terms of scouts, if a kid cant site a bb gun, -- first things first. But allowing him to know how good a good shot is is just plain fair and right. Otherwise- what do they know what to shoot for other than personal their best?

 

If personal best is the meter by which all scouting is based, (which I think is both untrue and stupid), then it will certainly be an unattractive organization.

 

Your personal best in terms of ethics is also an interesting idea. Aren't we given examples of what is considered exemplary ethical behavior? Don't we give ourselves as Christians the model of Jesus Christ as how we should live our life? Isn't that setting an impossible ethical and moral goal? (To a Christian they would say 'Yes" But Christ told us that nothing is impossible for God the Father.")

 

So I say that there will be boys who want the bar set high.

 

What scout wouldn't want to know who has the highest score of pushups, mile run, or the most hiking miles logged?

 

Why can't we admit that athleticism to some degree in scouting would be beneficial.

 

One complaint I have heard about scouting is that they have great values in their law and oath, but the follow through is pretty namby pamby. Strength in Body, Awakeness in Mind, and Straightness in Morality require work and effort and knowledge of how you stand amongst the pack and the troop and the body as a whole.

 

 

Elite Patrols is a concept I think scouts might find interesting. Quit protecting kids from exploring the depth and beauty of excellence.

 

Jeff(This message has been edited by Lem)

[Stosh]

I have often wondered how elite/honor/older-boy patrols fared against a majority of medocrity and/or newbie patrols out there that consistantly out-vote them at the PLC's? Going to summer camp for the 7th year in a row can't be much of an inspiration for the older boys.

 

Stosh

 

 

[TwoXForr]

Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts." (Sign hanging in Albert Einstein's office at Princeton)

 

 

Okay here are the rules for knot tying, the rope must be placed on a level table with the boys hands outside a twelve inch taped off section where the rope is, the boy is then told go and the knot tying commences. The boy announces done, and then the Offically trained and certified referee (not from that troop to make it offical) pronounces whether or not the knot is correct. If the boy wants his time entered into the database then the certified referee must use his code to enter it into the National Database. In order to compete at the National Level the council must have a certified competition........

 

Lem dont we really have enough to do, without bringing in all kinds of nonesense like the above sample.

 

Personally I want a boy who stands on his own, who can do skills profecienty and without hesitation, Bandage a wound to save a life, start a fire to keep himself warm, pick out the proper trail in the wilderness to get where he wants to go.

 

There is a time and place for competition, it drives and motivates a lot of people. Want to compete in orienting there are competitions for that.

 

But setting up a tent the fastest, you know what that means in my troop an oppurtunity to help another scout finish setting up his tent.

 

What happens when we put an emphasis on competition in Scouting, exclusion.

 

Little Timmy cant make the cut, so he gets left behind, because the "Competition" Patrol wants to get in ten miles before noon.

 

Jimmy has asthma and can't cut it on the climbing tower. Well then Jimmy sit down and let the Competition Patrol get thier "practice" time in, and if there is time before it gets dark we will let you try.

 

Johnny has ADD and has trouble learning to tie a slip knot, well sorry no one is there to work with you, but the "Competition" Patrol's assigned ASM is making sure they can tie the Monkey Fist knot for extra points at the next Knot Meet.

 

 

Scouting to me is about self-reliance and a moral code.

 

Maybe we should be more concerned with who is the best but if we ever get to that point you can count me out.

[Lem]

TwoXForr,

 

You make a great argument for how we should keep kids with physical,medical, and mental conditions involved in scouting e.g. By making other scouts stay at their level. But at whose expense?

 

SHould the same argument apply in schools? Varisty for all?

 

Maybe you have articulated the reason why so many scout troops look and feel like the Special Olympics.

 

I am not an all or nothing guy. I suggested that my ideas be an option, a choice, for those boys who want to go farther than the bare minumum requirements.

 

Why does the scouting movement have to be a Homogenious organization? Isn't it enough that it has a total Monopoly on the Scouting Movement in our Nation?

 

I think the same problems intrinsic in public schooling have been infecting scouting.

 

Egality at the sake of excellence.

 

And it is you who are articulating an all or nothing argument, not I.

 

You are so compeptitive you want NO competition.

 

THis, to my thinking, is the crux of the problem with the institutional prejudices behind many of the scouters on this forum.

 

"Scouting isn't broke- so quit offereing us suggestions on how to fix it."

 

How is that a useful working premise for any situation? All it prepares the organization for is blindness and drift and catastrophe.

 

Jeff(This message has been edited by Lem)

[skeptic]

Lem; still waiting for clarification as to what your involvement is. If you are actually in the program, you know that you can suggest these things to your group and see if they will run with it. Then, maybe it can be reported on. If part, or even all, works, then perhaps it could be expanded to other groups. But, every troop is different, and direct competition is not the primary focus in scouting. In our troop, there is statement visible above the board; "Live the 12". That is the focus. Finding ways to hopefully instill that into their lives, not only now, but into the future.

[Lem]

I suppose I am an interested bystander to the scouting movement. My daughter is in a GS group. I have no interest in putting my boys in scouting for the reasons I have mentioned already. Do you have to be a registered Scouter to be on this forum? I would hope that the ideas I offer on this site can stand on their own, and that the other members of the forum can think for themselves and weigh ideas from wherever the source.

 

But sure, if you want to say to me, "unless you have walked in a scouter's shoes, then don't comment on scouting"- go ahead. But in my humble opinion, that line of reasoning isn't well reasoned.

 

Jeff(This message has been edited by Lem)