By the numbers

[SR540Beaver]

Lem,

 

Council events? Back in August, our monthly outing was a canoe trip on a local river. This december is shotguns. I agree with Bob that it is your "sales" team. Our boys choose what they want to do and where they want to go during their annual planning. They teach the skills session at troop meetings prior to campouts and the an adult mentors the individual outing's youth planner on making it all happen. Delivering the promise isn't difficult with skilled and trained adults.

[TwoXForr]

Well I guess I should turn in my ASM patch and maybe if I am lucky just be allowed to work with the committe and maybe sell popcorn, because my height and weight dont match up. Even though last year I completed the MegaTransect in Lock Haven PA (http://www.ultrahike.com/home.htm) and do a MS 150 every year. (Yes, I could be a better example to my Scouts)

 

Not to mention some older Scout leaders who love Scouting and our programs could not function without them including the head of our Rifle Safety Program who is an ASM but is pushing 60.

 

Statements about peoples height and weight and combination of the two are contrary to the ideals of Scouting.

 

As for a 95% drop out, all because a kid does not make Eagle it does not mean he has droped out. Maybe he aged out as a Life Scout. I consider it a success if he puts the Scout Oath and Law into his heart and mind and it makes him a better man. Not some stupid numbers game.

[Stosh]

The drop out rate of 25% is not based on number of Eagles. The surprise came when the drop out rate of 25% coinsided quite well with the number of boys getting Eagle. Yes, a few boys may age out at Life without their Eagle, but we're still talking a majorly small percentage of boys entering the program, whether they Eagle or not.

 

While "numbers games" might not appeal to many scouters, it does however, raise a major red flag that seems to be swept under the rug. If this was public school, the public would be in an uproar, if it was a church, they'd be looking at every evangelism program in the book. Yet, scouts look at it as business as usual for just an elite few and life goes on.

 

Stosh

[Eagledad]

Since the vast majority of older scouts dont get the Eagle, the BSA numbers never made sense. Even if Eagle was the base number, a 14 year old Eagle scout would skew any real numbers. Dont we really want to know how many scouts stay in the program to 17? And, those of us who have watched the process the BSA uses to track their rosters can honestly say they arent accurate enough to know anyway.

 

That being said, if the discussion is really about fixing a problem, then the discussion first needs to understand where there is a problem. In general, the statistics for loosing scouts over the age of 10 (Troops) hasnt change significant in the last 40 years. The significant changes are more in the other ages, most significanly the 10 and below ages (Cubs).

 

Add to that how much our culture has changed over the last 40 years, we might start to see a trend point toward a big picture.

 

It is not an easy problem to understand. Most folks focus on local observations as the overall problem when in reality local issues are usually just local and dont represent the big picture problems. We really have to see the numbers at a larger scale to find the problems.

 

Barry

 

[Lem]

Do you think that Boy and Cub Scouting are perceived any more by anyone to be a program embracing any idea of elitism? We have seen the defense of the morbidly obese as mentors, and we have seen the anger that arises when the program is criticized. We see that the kids don't seem so proud to wear their scout uniforms, when in fact we see kids every day proud to wear around their soccer pajamas, sports jerseys, and camouflage hunting or militaryesque cloths from Wal-Mart. It seems that kids are not so much into non-conforming and being un-uniform as they are pretty universally put off by something about what scouting has become.

 

And I have to agree that rotund men and women have issues that they have not addressed. And they should get a handle on it if not for themselves, then for the idea of being a role model. Unless you think we want to send the message to our young men that scouting really doesnt take too seriously its program and its talk about physical fitness.

 

Youth Wrestlers are proud, and little leaguers are proud, and kids that serve in the student senate are proud, and Varsity athletes are totally psyched about what they do and who they represent. There is obviously a lot of elitism in the schools. And our culture universally applauds this and rewards this and sees it as a sign of national and community and individual and family health.

 

We all recognize the excellence of the Olympic competitors. Does scouts court the idea of a scout sponsored Olympic training program for such sports that drift into its mission and outdoor adventure- like bi-athletes, for instance??

 

So why the shame about scouting???

 

Maybe the kids understand something we adults are overlooking: That they want to be given a challenge and take to risk of losing to an opponent. They want to know their score- and that the score means something.

Why isn't there a best troop? Why aren't there all state and all nation troops and Districts? Or are there?

 

It seems like the world is just passing scouting by, and the scouters are either oblivious, indifferent, or angry and frustrated.

 

 

Jeff

(This message has been edited by Lem)

[eagle77]

 

Lem you wrote.

And I have to agree that rotund men and women have issues that they have not addressed. And they should get a handle on it if not for themselves, then for the idea of being a role model. Unless you think we want to send the message to our young men that scouting really doesnt take too seriously its program and its talk about physical fitness.

 

I take it you are a gym guy. Let me ask you something. So if you are out of shape you are a poor role model? How about the gigantic role models that are on the front line of pro football teams, the big guys competing in the olympics, or the out of shape teacher at school, or for that matter mom or dad. All of them are role models that I see as having more time and exposure to scout age youth. All of these are role models, but only out of shape scout leaders are expected "at least in your perfect shape world" to be worth anything. I have met plenty of people that are in shape and have no fat on them what so ever, they are also as dumb as a bucket of rocks and have no ability to work with the youth. I also think you need to stop looking or camparing scouting to other things that are based on competitive activities, this is not a race but a learning and fun time. You just seem to be one of those people that looks only at the outside and dismisses what is on the inside, which I see as way more important.

Well got to "walk" and get me some good fast food to plump up on.

The real scary part to me is you will pass on this stupid prejudice to our youth.

[Lem]

If scouting is supposed to be about fun and learning then I wold probably suspend the scouting ideals portion- which requires of scouts sacrifice and a prejudice toward God and Country.

 

Yeh, and eating disorders, in my book, are up there with the deadly sin of gluttony and other forms of abuse. Be Prepared! Be prepared for what---Diabetes and a stroke? Being an example of the scouting ideals is as superfiscial as it is substantial.

 

WHy NOT comapre Scouting to other youth activites- especially if they are growing in size and popularity. Maybe scouters can learn from others and not just from other scouters. Excellence is a contagious quality.

 

Going on a diet, walking a few miles a day, laying of the camp cooking, can annd should be a part of the ethic of scouters. They should make scouting look good and healthy and vital.

 

Jeff

[perdidochas]

Goldwinger wrote:

"Oh, it happens all the time. Look at sports. Thousands of kids play recreation basketball. Fewer play middle school ball and finally only ten get to play for the high school team. Why? Some drop from lack of interest, others drop from lack of talent. "

 

 

I agree totally. Now, maybe Scouts drops off faster than sports.

 

[Eagle92]

Lem,

Never judge a book by it's cover in reference to leaders. My old SM was about 5'9", was over 200 lbs, and had a large waist. However he ran marathons as a hobby, and when groups went to Philmont, he could walk people into the ground.

 

Now as to why Scouting is losing number. IMHO, I think several factors are involved. In reverse order

 

3) Not enough dedicated leaders. Let's face it it takes time and dedication to be a leaders. When I was a DE doing roundups, I could get every single boy interested in CS, but when it cam time to recruit leaders from the parents, it was like pulling teeth.

 

2) Not enough parental involvement. I've met parents who viewed Scouting as if it was a sport: seasonal. When they realize that it is a year round program, they start backing down some. if parents back down, no matter how good your program is, you will lose scouts.

 

1) Society had produced a generation that "wants it NOW!" let's face it we are the instant gratification generation/society. How many folks actually saved up a down payment for a house? How many wait and save 0to buy a car? I remember when a scout had to wait for the court of honor to get their advancement, anywhere from a week to three months. Now it's policy to recognize the youth with the rank ASAP. Instant gratification. And Eagle is not something that you can get overnite. So we get some who join, realize they actually need to put soem time and effort to advance and don't like it.

[eagle77]

Lem,

My statement of fun and learning was a generalization, if you would like I would have listed everything from the oath, law, motto, and slogan sorry. I did forget duty to God and Country. If you would have read my statement correctly you would have noticed a word there before activities. Competitive. In competitive activities there is a winner and a loser, scouting should be a win, win type of activity. The only competition is for the youths time with practice and games.

 

[Lem]

I have a problem I guess with the idea of "win win" activities. My kids are involved pretty heavily in music. In music, whether it be for "enjoyment" and or "performance" or whatever- it is music, and it is either done well or it isn't. WInning in this context is doing well. Music competitons help hone the kids' performance and musical skills and it gives them an idea of who the other kids are out their and how they stack up to them. THis has pros and cons- but mostly pros. Becasue it is a form of honesty.

 

Competition is not an evil- it is can be cruel- but only usually when kids are given false expectations. And competition exists whenther it is just competiting against a former score- or other people's scores. Kids really do want to know the statisitcs on things like RBI's and World records and such, and being known as the fastest knot tier, or the best archer or marksman or whatever would be interesting to kids. WHy doesn't scouting generate its own stars while they are still in scouting?

 

Scouting seems weak and anemic to adults for this and other reasons- and not just becasue they want immediate gratification. If it were true that everyone wants immediate gratification then sports and music would also be on a decline- and they certainly are not.

 

Jeff(This message has been edited by Lem)

[perdidochas]

Lem,

At least where I've worked all of my adult life, "win-win" is the prevailing model inside the workplace (now between companies is a different thing). Win-win is something we should strive for in kids. That said, there is also something to be said for competition. It's also part of human nature. We need both.

 

As a parent and adult, even before being involved with my kids in Scouting, I've never got the impression that scouting is viewed as weak and anemic, except for by the ultra-competitive (i.e. the woman who told my wife that they "don't have time to be nice to other people.") Personally, I'm glad that such people stay out of scouting.

 

Also, why the obsession with obese scout leaders?

[perdidochas]

A link to a site with some Scout/Eagle stats:

 

http://usscouts.org/eagle/bottomline.asp

[Stosh]

Hmmm, I noticed an emphasis on competition and accomplishment that seems to run through the thread. If scouting is a progression of development, why is it there are ending points in the middle of the process? AOL and Eagle, being the two biggies. But then after the boys have achieved these two milestones, then it's time to quit.

 

Maybe the emphasis on accomplishment of certain measurements isn't the route to go. Is wearing the SPL patch the ultimate goal of leadership? Maybe the JASM is the ultimate goal of leadership. Only a few get to wear those.

 

What about the boy who grows and matures into an honest, hard working individual, cares for others and is one of those kids any parent would want to call their own and yet he never got Eagle, Star maybe at best? Is he a win or lose when we start to tally up the score?

 

Maybe because one can only win in scouts if they get AOL or Eagle, we tell our boys they somehow don't "measure up". Maybe the boys that carry their accomplishments someplace other than on their uniforms need to be recognized somehow, too.

 

What is the real message we are telling these boys to make them drop out?

 

Stosh

 

Stosh

[asm 411]

Before I became a Scouter about 6 years ago I was weighing in at about 180 lbs. Now I am at about 220 but I am trying to go back. I do still pass Lem's criteria but not by much. I think I took my exercise time and condensed it down to my one hour a week of Scouting instead. LOL

 

On a more serious note I would like to say that I am not as fervent about Scouters being in shape as Lem but I do believe he is right. We should be trying to set a good example about physical fitness and by being overweight we are not being a good example.