By the numbers

[asm 411]

Stosh,

 

I think the number one reason is not delivering the ... expectation. I almost said "promise". What do boys "think" they are going to do in Scouting at all levels? Not what we tell them they are going to do in the first couple pages of the handbook. But what do they expect? Camping, Hiking, Canoeing??? Do we even bother to ask when they join? (Mental note, ask new Scouts from now on) Perhaps that is a great first SMC question.

 

Parental expectations? How many parents, without an older boy having already been in cubs, show up to the Tiger Cub round up knowing their participation is going to be required for the next 10 months. Then in the next two subsequent years be responsible for their child's advancement. It is not until Webelos that we start to lift that burden from them. And we wonder why we have snowplow and helicopter parents show up at the Troop door.

 

My opinion is that one way to slow Cub Scout attrition is to have the Webelos Den leader, Wolf may be better, run the Tiger Den for the first 3 meetings. Then step into the background for a few meetings but still be there to offer advice. Then be available as a mentor to the new Den leader. This way the Tigers don't start off with a half baked program. I wonder how many Tigers we lose in the first 30 days. I remember when I first started I had nothing to go. I got a hearty hand shake and welcome aboard speech which included "If you have any questions feel free to ask." I did not even know what questions to ask. The thing is I showed up wanting to be the Den Leader and I was a bit overwhelmed. What about the reluctant volunteers?

 

In Boy Scouts the only way to deliver the expectation is to let the Scouts pick the activities and plan the events. Most everyone here knows this. How we go about doing it is often on a Troop by Troop basis. I feel an new topic about to be posted. ...

 

Lincoln

 

P.S. Stosh thanks for getting the gears spinning.

 

[Gold Winger]

" "Leave No Trace" is dishonest BS."

 

"Hey Scoutmaster! Can we carve our initials in this big oak tree?" "Sure, to do otherwise would be dishonest."

 

Yeah, it really is bad to not cut down trees, build roaring fires in the woods, and trample flora.

 

The website for the vile people who want us to preserve the outdoors

 

http://www.lnt.org/programs/principles.php(This message has been edited by Gold Winger)

[kraut-60]

GaHillBilly wrote "if(you)are under 6' and wear a size 40 or larger pants, you are failing as a Scoutmaster" Wow, am I ever glad I only wear a size 38 and stand 5'10"...otherwise I'd be failing?

 

The troop I serve in as Scoutmaster, has recruited 9 boys on average for the last 2 years...we still have some stop going to meetings.. some are active in sports and put Scouting aside for awhile, yet I see this as a part of Scouting that has always been.

 

I joined the BSA in Jan.1969. The troop I belonged to had at best 8-12 Scouts at any given time. The "cool" kids were nowhere to be found near or in a Boy Scout troop. By the numbers...more kids were in Cub Scouts when I was a Cub, and only a few went into Boy Scouts... Gee, kinda sounds like the reality of today.

 

I remember when the "cool" red berets were introduced, and how they would make the then "un-cool" uniform more with it and attract boys to Scouting...it didnt( John in KC will attest to this...maybe).

 

One thing that is coming through all the posts on this thread is that we are running a volunteer program...we have to want to do what we do for Scouting...we gotta have faith and believe in what the BSA is and how we can use its ideals and methods to better those youth WE CAN REACH...not every kid on the planet, but those who find the Scouting movement to their liking and want to be a part of it.

 

I'll go along with the "nerds and geeks" line...I was not a very popular kid in school...always got picked last for whatever silly game we had to play in Phy.Ed. class...never went out for sports... I spent my time reading and studying history and building models. But I was right at home here in Scouts. My dad took my sister and I hiking near every weekend it was nice out in the Kettle Morraine trails here in SE WI. I thrived on the advancement requirements as they challenged me to use some REAL skills to feed and live out of doors...something the "cool" kids couldnt do. I have much to thank Scouting for, mostly for the sense of right and wrong and the oath and law to guide ones life by...nothing in the public schools then or now will provide the opportunity to kids to grow and get better than Scouting did and still does.

 

As for the size 40 and under 6' being a failure... well I took a trek at Philmont in '06, but then I had dropped to 204lbs and was wearing a size 36...in '09 I'm doing another trek at Philmont...guess I could drop a few lbs...Ga HillBilly, the size of a Scouters hearts got nothing to do with their waist size.

[eagle77]

Hey GaHillBilly,

I've been looking for a reason to step down as scoutmaster, I guess you have now given me an excuse. I don't know if the 30 or so boys in the troop I scoutmaster for would agree. I have been in scouting for over 28 years now and yes I have seen some of the scoutmasters that would fit into your #1 category. Myself included. But I have seen many more who are not in that category who are just as bad, if not worse. Putting labels such as you have is really some form of shall we say hazing. As a scoutmaster it is my job to train the SPL and provide a challenging yet learning type of program. Nowhere does it say I need to be of top physical shape. Our troop is located just outside of Philadelphia, in Bucks County, Pa. Go Phillies!! In the 8 years that I have been scoutmaster our troop has gone to Northern Tier, Florida Sea Base, Texas, North Carolina, Ohio, white water rafting, white water canoeing, and Virginia. All of which I have either done myself with the scouts or worked support for, but more then anything every single one of them I was there when the boys left and when they returned. Each winter our troop goes skiing, something I have never been able to do. Do you notice something here? Any limitations that I may physically have, don't seem to interfere with what is offered to the scouts. All a good scoutmaster needs to do is use the resources that is at his call and make it happen. Because I earned my First Class before the 1972 scouting requirement revamping some of the things I needed to do for rank advancement these kids have no idea about. (stars, signaling or morse code, tracking) If at any time I come across something that I know or I do not have the proper training or knowledge in, I find someone or something that is.

 

In addition to the fact that I am an Eagle Scout, I am always looking at new ways to do scouting and training in doing that. I have been to PTC twice, I am woodbadge trained Antelope NE-II-123, but the best and most rewarding training is the weekly meeting and monthly activities that I do with the scouts. OBTW I did not become scoutmaster till after my son left scouting, so my only tie down is the love of scouting that I have. Your #1 needs to say only one thing:

1. A scoutmaster needs to be DEDICATED to the scout law and oath and doing whatever it takes (within reason) to see that his scouts do the same and have a blast doing it. I will not sell my scouts short and just say good time. With todays competion you need to have a program that goes above and beyond good. So before you just sell out an entire group of people, maybe you need to get around and spend more time with the dedicated group not the I wear a uniform group.

 

Bill

[Stosh]

I'm glad I'm 6' with a 34" waist. I was hoping to measure up....

 

I guess I don't always find the nerd/geeks in my troops. Yeah, they tend to be a little strange, but then every kid of that age has their quirks.

 

I guess the part of this whole thing and why I did the thread was because there are so many out there that think "it ain't broken, so why fix it" and/or well we reach 3-5 of them out of every 100 that join up and they get their Eagle and that's a good thing. Granted it's a volunteer group, but I know of no school, church, adult group, etc. that thinks a 95% dropout rate to be "Okay". Why is it we accept it for BSA? Is the problem the program? the adults? our culture? the boys? the attitudes? Maybe the elitist attitude of only a few area allowed to get Eagles.

 

Kinda makes one wonder, doesn't it?

 

Stosh

[Bob White]

Since when is it the unit leaders role to deliver what the kids "expect" rather than deliver the scouting program? If they expect to be able to play dodge ball for 90 minutes a week is that what you are going to do? Adult leadership does not mean the abdication of leadership to the will of the youth members.

 

Its the Scouting program not the "whatever the latest whim is program"

 

We have specific Aims and a specific Mission, you cannot expect to achieve them by wandering whichever way the youth member feels like going. It would be like having a map to a destination and ignoring it then just turning every time someone shouted "turn". If you ever reached the destination it would be by shear luck.

 

Scouting is fun and adventurous, Scout meetings and scout activities can be dull and cheesy. The difference is the in skills and abilities of the adult leaders at the unit level.

 

Kids do not quit doing things they enjoy. So why do some units grow and some units chase kids away? They use the same handbooks, they have had the same training syllabi, they have the same advancement requirements, they have the same uniforms. So what is the difference?

 

The difference is the skills and abilities of the unit leaders. Nothing effects the unit program more positively or more negatively.

 

As an example,

Yes, teens want to begin to gain independence from adults, not just from parents. So the BSA program includes (and always has included) Patrol activities and over nighters without adults present. And yet... how many units do you know actually allow it, or even develop the skills of the scouts to the level of being able to do it?

 

Look at who posters on this and other scouting sites blame for poor programming...the handbook, the uniform, the parents, the kids, the rules, the national office etc. etc

 

Who is responsible for the Boy Scout program? Its the adult leaders in the troop. Oh some will say No, no, no its the Senior Patrol Leader, well, they are wrong. The Scoutmaster is responsible for the development of the junior leaders in the troop, if they are not doing their job then the SM isn't doing his (or her) job.

 

The next troop meeting or campout is not dependent on the uniform,. or the handbook, or the national office, or the district committee, or any of the myriad of other excuses commonly used by leaders in units with a poor program. It's the unit leaders that make the difference. They always have been the key and they always will be.

 

There is no such animal as a good unit with bad leaders, or vice versa.

 

If there were any validity to the argument that the problem was with the program then every single unit should be losing scouts and every district should be shrinking and that just is not the case. The closer a unit stays to the methods of Scouting the more successful that unit will be. Units that stray from the program will whither and die.

 

If you are in a unit that is losing scouts the solution that will have the fastest and most powerful effect is to improve the skills and abilities of the unit leaders. Sometimes that can be done by improving the leaders you have and sometimes it means finding better leaders.

 

But the only place where you will find leaders blaming the program for membership loses is in units that do not follow the Scouting program.

 

 

 

 

[eagle77]

That is one loaded question jblake-47. I think one answer is maturing. Think of some of the things you did while growing up. Many that I did I stopped doing or lost interest in doing. I began to grow and as I grew I narrowed down the things that I really wanted to devote my time to. For me scouting was one thing that did not depend on being a jock or nerd, all I had to do was sit back have fun and learn. We are working and learning with boys that are maturing into young men and as they get older they too will begin to narrow down that field of likes and really likes list.

 

The other thing is that what I have noticed today is more of a switch to a jack-of-all-trades instead of a master of one or two. The addition of year round sports (fall soccer, indoor soccer, spring soccer), then comes the icky part girls and gas. That is some heavy competition.

 

The only thing I can really say is go with what you have and make it something that those boys will one day be telling the scouts that they are leading.

 

Bill

[Gold Winger]

"Granted it's a volunteer group, but I know of no school, church, adult group, etc. that thinks a 95% dropout rate to be "Okay"."

 

Oh, it happens all the time. Look at sports. Thousands of kids play recreation basketball. Fewer play middle school ball and finally only ten get to play for the high school team. Why? Some drop from lack of interest, others drop from lack of talent.

[skeptic]

Couple observations and thoughts here. First of all, in the 30+ years as a leader I have had 25 Eagles, so I guess we are not a mill. I have set on fifty or more boards for other troops in our district. While we certainly have had the geeks and nerds, many are athletes as well; often the reason they are coming in under the wire age wise. In my troop, one Eagle was the president of the hs student body, captain of the water polo team, president of a service club on campus, and still finished his Eagle under the wire. Then went on to graduate with honors from NASU where he went on a full academic scholarship. Another Eagle who left my troop before earning it, but finished with some buds in the city, was an all star varsity football player and now earning superior grades in college. One in five Eagles from our area are in sports, and half are in the top tier; yet they stay in the program as best they can.

 

If there are bad vibes regarding the program, most of them come from the idiots who seem to feel the necessity to run anything of worth down. Why, because they either were not given the opportunity, or because they learned it from their own parents. Remember, we are now pretty much into the 3rd generation after Dr. Spock and his ilk; and the results are showing in all areas of our society.

 

Too many parents seem to think that scouting should not follow the rules, and cause difficulty in many troops. Their kid is special, and he needs extra help or to have rules altered. Baloney! He needs to learn things and rise to the challenge. If the unit caters to these people, yes it will be weak and not set the example. But, at least in our area, troops tend to have pretty good outdoor programs. And, reality is, that is still what holds the kids.

 

Yes, over-weight and out of shape leaders can be a hindrance. I am struggling right now to find younger, better fit adults to take the outdoor program on. I cannot any longer do what I once could; partly due to weight, and partly simply older age maladies that come to haunt you from younger age injuries.

 

We can always do better; but the program is still viable and has its place. With effort and work, it may even start to win back a few supporters. But, with all the other distractions of today, it will not likely ever have the same success as it did when it was one of the only activities available.

 

One more thing; yes, Eagle still means something. But, we need to try to make sure that we keep it meaningful. Example. Last year in our council there were 203 Eagles; their service hours for projects came to over 26,000 hours. Most benefactors were schools, community parks, churches, and government outdoor related entities. Where would the communities be without these efforts? We just need to make it clearer to them that scouting still serves the community at large. Quit finding excuses and simply do what ever you can to keep it going and "Do Your Best".

 

 

 

[BadenP]

Skeptic, I liked your summation of the situation, especially the part about altering requirements for a boy with pushy parents. I also agree that the BSA is still the best youth program we have going today. I see so many troops in my council putting the outdoor program on the back burner because the leaders themselves don't feel comfortable with that element of the program. My seasoned Venturers have even offered to go to any troop to help the adult and youth leaders with their outdoor programs, they have received requests and are currently assisting in 15 troops with everything from basic outdoor skills to a high adventure emphasis program.

 

IMHO using the outdoor segment of scouting is still the best way to attract new members and retain the ones you already have. I still would love to see scoutmaster training include a much stronger emphasis on the outdoor skills than it currently does. A scoutmaster with inadequate outdoor skills will unlikely use that aspect of the program more than is absolutely required.

 

Bob- still singing the same old tune, maybe if you actually read the other posts you would have a much more constructive reply.

[asm 411]

Hello Bob White,

 

 

You wrote -

"Since when is it the unit leaders role to deliver what the kids "expect" rather than deliver the scouting program? If they expect to be able to play dodge ball for 90 minutes a week is that what you are going to do? Adult leadership does not mean the abdication of leadership to the will of the youth members."

 

Looking back at my posting I see why you may have read it this way. It was not my intent to say in any way that we should not be delivering the program as designed. Far from it, I am a firm belieiver that using the methods of Scouting to achieve the Aims of Scouting is what we should all be doing all the time.

 

That being said my intention was that during the joining process we should be asking the incoming Scout what their expectations of Scouting are. Once we know then we can either verify his expectations or explain where his expectations are not in line with what we do. If we listen to those expectations and find that a large number of incoming Scouts would like to do something we don't currently do like canoeing then as Scouters we bring that up with SPL or the PLC. I never imagined anything like 90 minutes of dodgeball would be a boys expectation of Scouting. Just the same we could then enlighten this boy that is not what Scouting is about. Explain what Scouting is about and then he can decide if he is still interested. Perhaps even mention that we do play dodgeball occasionally if that is the case.

 

I think knowing the expections of the incoming Scouts will help us improve the program and raise retention. It seems to me that most 10 and 11 years olds are not going to stand up and say "When are we going canoeing?" They will come to the meetings for a couple months not see what he is looking for and lose interest. A short conversation at the get go I think would go a long way to aligning the promise with the incoming Scout's expectation. It may even let him know that the Canoe trip is schedule for September and in the mean time we are doing these other "cool" things.

 

Lincoln

 

 

[Bob White]

Would it not be more advantageous to tell them what they can expect since that is what the program should be delivering, rather than ask them what they expect since they could have expectations that are incompatible or unrelated to the scouting program.

 

This is the direction taken by the Boy Scout Handbook is it not, in the forst few pages where it tells scouts what they can expect from the the program?

 

If you tell them what theycan expect according to the BSa and then fulfill those expectations then you have succeeded in your role as a scout leaer. But is you aske them what they expect and do not meet their many and varied expections than you have failed each of them, have you not?

 

BW

[Gold Winger]

"But is you aske them what they expect and do not meet their many and varied expections than you have failed each of them, have you not?"

 

Only if you promise what you do not deliver.

[Lem]

Mornin Fellas,

 

In our area, I know of one troop that puts most of their efforts into COPE and climbing stuff. Another plays frisbee alot. One spends a great deal of time in a church gym at night with their noses in the manual. There are no or at least very few district wide events for the scouts except for derbies and klondikes. So the idea that there is some homogenous scouting experience out their is kind of foolish. And uniforms are all way on the down low as well. Most scout units are starting to look like all boy venture units.

 

And a lot of the scouters that I have spoken with in the past seem to try and sell scouting to boys by speaking to them of all the stuff that may only happen at council camps, like canoing, bb and rifles, archery, etc. I have met boys who joined in September, waited all year for the promise to stand in line to shoot bb guns for a total of five or ten minutes.

 

Most of the adults I know don't like camping and outdoor wilderness activities- and that prejudice usually will be givien to the boys over time.

 

So Scouting is a tough sell.

 

But so is bible school.

 

And the fella who made the admition that scouting is well suited for geeks ought to at least be commended for his honesty.

 

But my sons really don't want to think of themselves as geeks. They play classical music, are into RC airplanes and scuba and starwars and alot of boy stuff are are not intrested in sports too much. But they admire grit and toughness too. And their friends tell me that when they were in scouting, it was so much "girlish stuff" that they got pretty bored.

 

Also- the parents that my wife and I know have almost universally been dissappointed with the scouting expereince, telling us that they found it weird and committeeish.

 

 

Jeff

 

 

 

[Bob White]

Scouting is not a tough sell. Your problem locally appears to be with the skills and abilities of your sales team.

 

Not all units have that same problem. When you look at the actual scouting program you will find that none of the units you describe follow it, they just all chosen different ways not to follow it.

 

It's unfortunate that your community has not been able to secure better leadership in order to deliver an actual scouting program.

 

What exactly qualifies someone to wear your 'geek' label Lem? And how does one go about getting the job of labeling geeks in your community?

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)