Laser Tag Prohibited??

[xlpanel]

Everyone seems to be forgetting that all paintball places carry their own insurance.

 

If you go to a paintball place and get hurt, who cares if the scouts will insure you or not. You are insured by the place already.

[NealOnWheels]

"If you go to a paintball place and get hurt, who cares if the scouts will insure you or not. You are insured by the place already."

 

Actually they are insured not you.

[Nachamawat]

So let me get this straight. . . the SPL has a birthday party in the family pool and since most of the invitees are members of his Scout troop they need to bring their swim tags and place them on the swim board and maintain constant contact with their swim buddies at this non-troop sponsored swim activity. Where do we as Scout(er)s draw the line? I understand that we are supposed to live by the Scout oath and law in our daily lives, yet, does that mean we must live by the G2SS in every activity we under take? Does that also apply to LNT? I think that will make a number of my friends upset when they will have to curtail their off-roading activities!

 

This discussion reminds me of the email that makes the rounds from time to time about the boomers that survived all the terrible things we did like drinking from hoses, riding our bikes from dawn to dusk, and everything else. Laser tag is not going to forever scar this generation anymore than we were scarred by getting cut from the little league baseball team because we were not able to field well enough. Time to get a grip on reality and start worrying about things that really matter.

[csyork]

I talked to two local paintball places this month.

 

Regarding liability, both places require substantial liability waivers. One requires notarized liability waivers. They are not responsible for any injury. They list possible injuries including everything from loss of vision to death.

 

One paintball place said they get a lot of scout groups even though they have heard it's not allowed. The scout groups camp out nearby and "disband" the scout function to go play paintball.

 

- Judging from the waivers, liability is a big deal

- Despite the ban scouts playing paintball is happening regularly

- The "It's not a scout event" wink-wink, nudge-nudge tactic is common

 

Just sharing my recent experience ...

[evmori]

So let me get this straight. . . the SPL has a birthday party in the family pool and since most of the invitees are members of his Scout troop they need to bring their swim tags and place them on the swim board and maintain constant contact with their swim buddies at this non-troop sponsored swim activity.

 

I sure hope junk like this isn't happening! The G2SS only applies to Scouting events not birthday parties!

[Lisabob]

I think the kind of situation Nachamawat is hypothesizing is really a red herring (no offense intended).

 

That is NOT the question. Nor, as far as I can tell, are super soakers a question in any sort of serious way.

 

The question applies to activities that are specifically, by name, prohibited in the G2SS like paintball and laser tag. Now we can (and do!) go round and round about whether such activities should be banned. But the fact of the matter is that this is one time where the language is clear. I don't read the G2SS to say a darn thing about what people do in non-scouting contexts, but it is pretty plain that these are not activities that scout units should plan to do as part of their program.

 

I am much more concerned about situations like csyork describes, than about an individual's birthday party and such.

 

 

[Eagledad]

Shesh.

 

My younger son and his 11 buddies have know each other since age five when we started their soccer team. They are all in scouts, the same soccer team and in the same youth group at church. Not to mention all the other local activities like school and so on. This group of boys spent a week canoeing the Bounder Waters for their high school graduation trip. Their church sponsored the trip, but the trailer they used to haul their gear was a troop trailer and the two adult church youth leaders who went with them are also scout leaders. Their assistant soccer coach was also asked to go, but I declined because I was going on another Boundary Water trip a few weeks later. When they go play Lazer tag, are they going as a scout group, church youth group, soccer team or just close friends?

 

Does this subject kind of hint at the helicopter parents culture thing we keep talking about. Im sure that National just doesnt make this stuff up. Someone must be hovering somewhere.

 

Barry

 

[Nachamawat]

What Barry was talking about is where I was heading with my comment. If the boys want to get together as a group and play laser tag or paint ball off the clock, as it were, I say go for but not as a Scouting related activity. Simply refrain from putting anything that is not G2SS related on the calendar. Seems pretty simple to me.

 

Scouting is an avenue to a better life for our kids but not the only way. Is it?

[DeanRx]

From the online G2SS...

 

Unauthorized and Restricted Activities

 

"Pointing any type of firearm or SIMULATED FIREARM at any individual is unauthorized. Scout units may plan or participate in paintball, laser tag or similar events where participants shoot at targets that are neither living nor human representations. Units with Council approval may participate in formally organized historical reenactment events, where firearms are used and intentionally aimed over the heads of the reenactment participants. The use of paintball guns, laser guns or similar devices may be utilized in target shooting events with Council approval and following the Sweet 16 of BSA safety. Council approval means the approval of the Scout Executive or his designee on a tour permit specifically outlining details of the event.

(However, law enforcement departments and agencies using firearms in standard officer/agent training may use their training agenda when accompanied with appropriate safety equipment in the Law Enforcement Exploring program.)"

 

I have been told both at BALOO training, at council sponsored Fun w/ Sons, and at roundtable meetings that a "Simulated Firearm" includes a pop-gun, cap-gun, water-gun, stick, or even a hand pointed with thumb up and pointer finger out.

 

So no, LisaBob - seems the supersoakers are a serious question under this guideline as one major council seems to view them as a 'simulated firearm'.

 

The thing I don't understand is that BSA will not allow lazer tag or paintball, but will allow scouts to participate in "historical reinactments" so long as the firearms are pointed "above the heads" of the participants. Black powder muskets firing blanks at others without protective gear (especially eye protection) has GOT to be more dangerous than paintball or lazer tag... so I just don't get it.

 

Also, I thought we were NOT a para-military organization, but its OK to dress up as either Union or Confederate soldiers, or Revolutionary soldiers or British soldiers? Wonder if I could get BSA's approval for a "Battle for Bagdad" historical reinactment, so long as we used blanks in the M-16's from the local National Guard Armory and fired "above the heads" of the participants?

 

[evmori]

I gotta agree with Barry! The helicopter parents are probably the ones driving this drivel.

 

Common sense people! If it's not a Scouting event, the G2SS doesn't apply!

[walk in the woods]

From DeanRX "The thing I don't understand is that BSA will not allow lazer tag or paintball, but will allow scouts to participate in "historical reinactments" so long as the firearms are pointed "above the heads" of the participants. Black powder muskets firing blanks at others without protective gear (especially eye protection) has GOT to be more dangerous than paintball or lazer tag... so I just don't get it. "

 

Yeah, me either. We were just at an event a couple of months ago where an adult leader of a Venturing Crew of reinactors fired a blank round from a pistol at a soda can to show the power of a "blank" round. The can was destroyed. That said, it was a Venturing Crew, so, without the exception we would undoubtly lose those crews. So, do Venturing Crews participating in reinactments better meet the needs of scouting than the patrol building to be derived from laser tag? Draw your own conclusions...

 

[Beavah]

That is NOT the question. Nor, as far as I can tell, are super soakers a question in any sort of serious way.

 

Yah, not for anybody with an ounce of reason, eh? But as DeanRx explains, da plain language of the policy is clear, and I reckon that the intent is the same. No pointin' a gun-like anything, squirt or otherwise, at a human.

 

Unless it's a real firearm or cannon, and yeh sorta point over their head while being jostled and runnin' around a field in period costume.

 

Problem is just that we didn't start up enough paintball and lasertag troops and crews fast enough. The key is to get a lot of units in place before someone tries to prohibit somethin', and then yeh can wave the numbers flag.

 

Beavah

 

[Lisabob]

If you read the section that was quoted by Dean, you will see specific mention of laser guns and paintball guns. You will not see any specific mention of water pistols, super soakers, and the like.

 

The prohibition on laser & paintball is clear. Personally I think the laser tag prohibition is dumb. I have mixed feelings about the paintball thing. But, there is no wiggle room for interpretation there, no matter how much some people might wish otherwise. If your scouting unit chooses to do these activities anyway, I suppose that's your business. Personally I view that as untrustworthy behavior.

 

As for the super soaker thing. Dean, I'm sorry you appear to have over-zealous people running your council's cub events, but this really is a matter of interpretation and not clear BSA national policy. Unlike laser & paintball, there is no mention of super soakers in the G2SS language. While I suppose it could be interpreted that way, in reality, a super soaker bears so little resemblance to a "fire arm" that I also think it could very easily be argued that the ban on simulated firearms does not include tubes of water being sprayed at each other.

 

 

[eagle1977]

Lisabob you said:

 

"As for the super soaker thing. Dean, I'm sorry you appear to have over-zealous people running your council's cub events, but this really is a matter of interpretation and not clear BSA national policy. Unlike laser & paintball, there is no mention of super soakers in the G2SS language. While I suppose it could be interpreted that way, in reality, a super soaker bears so little resemblance to a "fire arm" that I also think it could very easily be argued that the ban on simulated firearms does not include tubes of water being sprayed at each other."

 

I think that is plain wrong. Super soakers are in fact shaped like a rifle with a barrel, a stock, and a trigger mechanism. In order to inflict a watery injury on your opponent you must aim the "weapon" in their direction, right? A weapon is a weapon is a weapon. This is simply a matter of calling a spade a spade.

 

The bottom line of course is simple, however, if you want to participate in laser tag, paint ball, or any other activity that is contrary to the G2SS, simply do not do it as a an organized Scouting event. Allow the boys to organize it on their own time, away from the meeting time, and let them be boys for heaven's sake.

 

By the way the correct word word is reenactment!

 

[evmori]

From the G2SS:

 

Bold type throughout the Guide to Safe Scouting denotes BSA rules and policies.

 

Pointing any type of firearm (including paintball, dye, or lasers) at any individual is unauthorized. However, law enforcement departments and agencies using firearms in standard officer/agent training may use their training agenda when accompanied with appropriate safety equipment in the Law Enforcement Venturing program.

 

firearm -noun- a small arms weapon, as a rifle or pistol, from which a projectile is fired by gunpowder.

 

Based on the G2SS and the definition of a firearm, supersoakers & squirt guns are OK since they don't use gunpowder.