Laser Tag Prohibited??

[packsaddle]

Implied intent seems to flourish as a deceptive tactic in these arguments.

So to shift slightly to one possible future, if we had local option for councils, maybe even more local, for all of these kinds of things, the application of local option would surely extend to this kind of mundane activity as well if it applied to something as important as membership.

So my question is, if we had local option, would it lead to this kind of disagreement? If we can get this hot over something as inane as laser tag, what then about those truly 'hot' issues?

Edited typo.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[Beavah]

Who's telling them it's unsafe?

 

You're kiddin', right? Didn't yeh just a few posts back imply all kinds of personal risk and worries about "personal injury lawyers" and whatnot? G2SS is supposed to be a safety document, eh? And da lasertag bit is sittin' right there in the section that prohibits things like exploring abandoned mines.

 

I'm with packsaddle, eh? On most things, I believe in local option. There are some units that are just fine runnin' their own climbing activities, and some units who don't have that kind of capacity. But we don't prohibit climbin'. There are some units that are capable of doin' unit whitewater activities and others that aren't, but we don't prohibit whitewater. Both of those are way more dangerous than paintball or lasertag. Same thing if it's not safety but just PR. There are some communities where hunting is viewed in a bad light and others where it isn't, but we still allow huntin' in da Venturing program.

 

So I'm happy to support a Quaker unit that adopts our current G2SS policy prohibiting all toy guns. That's just not da same thing as tellin' tens of thousands of separately incorporated entities that they should act like Quakers.

 

And I reckon as citizens we should remember that our choices have real effects on da lives and livelihood of our friends and neighbors.

 

Beavah

 

[nolesrule]

If it was a local option activity then I wouldn't even be participating in this discussion here, and would only do so locally if I was asked. And then, I'd probably say go for it.

 

The real issue is that we shouldn't be encouraging people to willfully violate the G2SS, especially regarding an activity prohibited as a rule, whether it's as a unit activity or the "wink wink unofficial" activity. Just because some units may do it anyway doesn't make it ok. It condones a whole slew of not-so-scout-like behavior.

 

If you think it shouldn't be prohibited, fine. Get National to remove the prohibition completely or make it a local option.

 

 

The safety/lawyer thing is only a side opinion of mine that I think is secondary to the real issue. I only mentioned it to address some of the "cover your butt" type comments.(This message has been edited by nolesrule)

[Beavah]

The real issue is that we shouldn't be encouraging people to willfully violate the G2SS

 

Yah, I don't reckon anybody has been advocatin' "willfull encouragement" or anything like that.

 

My point is just that this is a prohibition that is roundly ignored by many or most units conductin' official events. Seriously, how many of our units have really prohibited all "simulated firearms" since that additional restriction was added last year?

 

By comparison, folks runnin' an unofficial or non-scouting activity are at least tryin' to comply with the intent, eh? They're tellin' everyone that this isn't an authorized BSA event. That's not "wink, wink" anything, that's a straightforward and honest statement. BSA doesn't allow this, but a bunch of us are going as a non-BSA activity and you're welcome to join.

 

Can't for da life of me figure out why anyone who objects to this sort of thing wouldn't welcome that.

 

The safety/lawyer thing is only a side opinion of mine that I think is secondary to the real issue. I only mentioned it to address some of the "cover your butt" type comments.

 

Yah, and that's part of da problem, eh? We seem to have a lot of people doin' that. Sayin' that someone's lasertag business is unsafe or that people who patronize the business are exposin' themselves to legal risk is just not in keepin' with da Oath and Law. On reflection, I reckon we'd all agree that's a much worse thing than lettin' kids play with toy guns.

 

------

 

Honestly, the real issue here is that someone has hijacked da BSA process. We all know that the vast majority of our units and COs feel the restriction is silly, and we know that H&S does too. So both da BSA membership and the safety experts are in agreement. Only reason the restriction is still in place is that someone is acting inappropriately. That's what's causin' the tension and where da real problem lies.

 

Beavah(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[DeanRx]

Here's a heaping dose of irony / hyprocrisy to throw on the campfire....

 

G2SS bans the pointing of "simulated" firearms presumably because BSA (whether right or wrong) has decided that they want kids to be taught to not point weapon-like insturments at other humans or even human shaped targets. OK, I don't agree, but its their policy, so I enforce it for scout outings.

 

Now for the irony - had a pack campout a couple months ago where it was brought into question because it was going to be HOT and the boys wanted to have a squirt gun fight. Reasonalbe people prevailed on this one and the scouts were allowed to have squirt guns (provided by our unit). The unit provided them so that they all had the same "armament", instead of one kid with a small water pistol and another showing up with a super-soaker-backpack set-up. Anyways, as CM, I took a little heat form a couple parents and the whole G2SS issue.

 

Fast forward 3 weeks to our spring roundup... I go down to the COUNCIL office to pick up the OFFICAL BSA recruitment fliers printed with our unit info for the roundup. These are color, front and back, flyers with pictures of scouts doing 'scout' activities as a border to the flier.

 

Well - guess what was in 3 of the pictures along the bottom margin of these OFFICAL BSA, COUNCIL PROVIDED, recruitment fliers ?? Wait for it......

 

Yup, 4 scouts engaged in what looked to be a very fun and wet waterfight. ALL had a super-soaker or other extra large caliber water "cannon" in their hands blasting the other scouts.

 

Go firgure ? Guess they can use the activity to recruit, you just can't do it once you are actually in scouting?

[BadenP]

Thank you Dean for pointing out the hypocrisy and contradictions in the GSS and National.

 

This has never been about breaking scouting rules its about the inconsistency and illogical policies the BSA makes and then adjusts them to fit a "PR" moment. So enough dribble already about teaching scouts to break the scout law concerning laser tag, waterguns etc,, because it is just plain untrue and nothing more than a load of cr*p put out by a National employee on a power trip. So for you scouters who can't see the forest thru the trees get over yourselves already.

[Horizon]

Don't be too quick to call a council flyer with photos of squirt gun wars hypocritical, when it is more likely to be an example of lack of knowledge by the volunteer marketing person who did the layout of the flyer.

 

When the ban on paintball and laser tag is in the G2SS, some might assume that it is a safety issue. They could even reasonable assume that there is nothing risky about squirt guns, so they put it in since it looks like good, clean fun.

 

However, we also have discussion that the issue is one of pointing guns at fellow scouts, which is more of a moral/behvioral stance than a safety stance. If you come at it from that perspective (and have been CORRECTLY educated and trained), you would probably guess that the BSA would not like squirt guns either.

 

This is just confusing enough to volunteers that it would be easy to leave in the squirt gun war photos without even catching that this might be a banned activity.

[nikkilugi]

Our district is having day camp in a couple of weeks and it is written in the walking leader handbook that scouts should bring water guns for daily water fights. This is coming directly from council and happens every year (going on 3 that I have attended).

[DeanRx]

Horizon-

 

While I'd agree that the photos on the flyer could have been done by a "volunteer", they were distributed from the COUNCIL ACTIVITIES OFFICE, I personally picked them up for our unit, from the council office. They were physically handed directly to me, by a professional scouter in the council scout office.

 

That means that they were at least viewed (if not reviewed) for accurate information by a PROFESSIONAL SCOUTER in the COUNCIL office, prior to being handed over to me.

 

I think its stupid personally. Stopping kids from pointing even their fingers or sticks at each other and yelling BANG!, BANG! is not going to stop another Colombine (it didn't stop the VT shooting - even though these silly rules had been in place at all schools and scouting activities since the Colorado incident).

 

How about we TEACH scouts the difference between make believe and real life?

 

I wonder if a scout (or another child of scout age) stole a car and ran over a few folks, that meant we'd have to stop doing PWD or building cub-mobiles? It follows the same logic. Or maybe at least the PWD cars should be used only on a rangemaster controlled, council sponsored track... that way there is no horseplay with the cars.... after all - horseplay leads to accidents on the real roadways! We don't want them simulating cars crashing, b/c they might try it in real life, right?

 

The painball, I can see. They have a decent muzzle velocity and could hurt someone if not properly trained in the use. Thats why many commercial paintball sites won't let kids on until they are over 12 or 13 y/o. However, the lazer tag and squirt guns are just plain stupid.

 

Its also stupid trying to tell an 8 y/o they can't play with a stick like a gun or a sword, or even make a pistol with their thumb and pointer finger...

 

I'll now sit still in my Ritalin induced coma, criss-cross applesauce style (can't be Indian), while one of the ALL-KNOWING, safety nazi grown-ups tell me WHY my logic is flawed in this thought process.

 

BTW - why isn't 'World of Warcraft' (or some of the other mild to medium violent video games) advertised in the pages of Boys Life on the list of "unauthorized" activities for scouts? Pretty sure you shoot simulated weapons at simulated people (creatures) in most all of those games.... then again, they do PAY for the add space....

[evmori]

Dean,

 

I hope you pointed this out to those parents who were the complainers!

 

I agree with the paintball ban. Laser tag, no. Actually, there was a brief window in time where the laser tag ban was lifted from the G2SS! It's back now!

 

National is full of contradictions regarding issues like these!

[Mafaking]

 

To Scoutingagain,

 

Paint balling is absolutely the most boy led event I have seen. My boy wants to go, its did you call to find the times and price. Don't know the phone number; look it up. Got your own money? I'll drive to get paint balls but your buying them. Who else is going?

 

This is likely how scouting was intended. Its local, simple to plan and coveted by the scouts to play. It's military in structure, similar to the look and feel of early days of scouting. The adults do a drop off and the scouts play a game. The events have ref's and the good boys and girls pretty much follow the rules and play fair.

 

 

 

 

[Knot Head]

We don't have daily "squirt gun" or "water gun" fights at summer camp anymore since the ban went into effect.

 

We have replaced these with a daily recreational time where scouts run about to enhance their physical fitness. This is now known as "Cool Water Mist Time" or "CWMT" for short. Because of the heat at summer camp the scouts take turns applying a cool water mist upon each other during this time of running about in the heat of the day. This is done to cool each participants body, thereby reducing the chance of heat exhaustion. When a scout has a dose of the cool water mist applied to him for medicinal purposes by a fellow scout then it is his responsibility to pre-treat another scout (to recuce the odds of heat exhaustion) by applying the cool water mist back upon another scout. The water mist is applied with efficient containers labeled by the manufacturer as super soakers. These are perfect for this activity because the soakers can apply a lot of water in a hurry and do a great job of keeping our scouts cool during this important time of daily physical fitness enhancement. Sometimes the scouts resort to using buckets to apply water in mass quantities.

 

We, as a troop do not ever play laser tag. We never did. We used to play "flashlight tag" but since that was banned we had to come up with a new game. We now play "flashlight relay".

 

In flashlight relay one scout (the beamer) tracks all other scouts (the evaders) who are trying to avoid him. When the beamer successfully finds and shines his light on the evader then the evader becomes a new beamer. This continues until all evaders are turned into beamers. Since we want every scout to be a "winner" in this game no points are awarded and the entire troop wins when all scouts are turned from evaders into beamers. Each scout uses his own flashlight, or a borrowed one for this game. The scouts seem to enjoy this game just as much as the old flashlight tag.

 

(This message has been edited by knot head)

[Kudu]

What a bunch of whiners. The Young Men's Christian Association set up a government-enforced national monopoly of Scouting for a reason. They did not like real Scouting, and if most of us were honest we would admit that we do not like real Scouting either.

 

Troop bylaws, Boards of Review, Scoutmaster Conferences, Scout Spirit requirements, POR requirements, regular election cycles, schoolwork Merit Badges, business manger Wood Badge, the Patrol Method as described in Scoutmaster-specific training, Cub Scout camping for teenagers (where Patrols set up less than 300 feet from each other), anti-Patrol Method dining halls at summer camp, and "Once an Eagle, always an Eagle" awards for males who have never walked into the woods with packs on their backs, are all uniquely American inventions that keep BSA Troops adult-run as the YMCA intended. These program elements are the exact opposite of Baden-Powell's Scouting: Not "different" from Baden-Powell's Scouting but the exact opposite.

 

Most red-blooded American boys hate the opposite of Scouting so much that Chief Scout Executive Robert Mazzuca is currently on a media blitz to violate the terms of our Congressional Charter and move the BSA away from camping and towards "family soccer:"

 

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3032619/#29491940

 

If you love the opposite of Scouting (and what adult control-freak would not?) then suck it up, walk it off, and write to your elected representatives to thank Congress for its opposition to the free market and its choice of the BSA as our national Scouting corporation. Then in the spirit of socialized Scouting, ask them to support our Chief Scout Executive with a "Centennial Congressional Charter" that gives the BSA a monopoly on the now-popular word "Soccer," just as they did for the once-far-more-popular word "Scouting."

 

Just think of what the BSA Guide to Safe Soccer will do to make boys hate government-sanctioned Soccer (no running or kicking!) as much as they now hate government-sanctioned Scouting!

 

Real Baden-Powell Scout Games have always been about Boy Scouts pretending to take the lives of other Boy Scouts, and you don't need expensive toys or dark indoor venues to play them.

 

Baden-Powell's "BOMB-LAYING" is a typical Wide Game. In his words: "Each Scout wears his life, i.e. scarf, tie, or piece of tape, in the back of his belt as a tail, so that it can easily be pulled out.... A Scout is killed when an opponent snatches his life from his belt, and when dead he can take no further part in the game, but must make his way quickly to a definite piece of neutral ground agreed upon before beginning the game... When the cover is good it is often possible to kill a Scout without his noticing it, and when after carefully planting the bomb the owner discovers he is dead, his feelings are better imagined than described...If a Scout who has laid his bomb is caught on the return journey, he can be taken back to the captor's camp and made to remove his bomb, and then killed."

 

Some Wide Games have game-extending provisions for returning to a central area to get new "lives" so that a Scout may return to the game to "kill" or be "killed" again!

 

B-P's "Bomb Laying" is only one of 84 Boy Scout Wide Games at The Inquiry Net:

 

http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/games/wide/

 

For outdoor tracking & stalking skills, see:

 

http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/skills/tracking

 

For additional stalking games, see:

 

http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/games/ripley/stalking

 

Baden-Powell winter war games can be adapted to summer by substituting pine cones or tennis balls for the snowball hand grenades:

 

http://inquiry.net/outdoor/winter/activities/games

 

Be sure to check out the other politically incorrect Boy Scout Games:

 

http://inquiry.net/outdoor/games

 

Kudu

 

[Eagledad]

This discussion comes up now and then and I always have the same reaction: Scouting is a great until the adults get involved.

 

Barry

[scoutingagain]

Mafking,

 

One other thing I've noticed about paintball. When I've done it with boys of scout age they tend to have much more experience with the event than the adults who participate. Consequently it's the boys that tend to lead the teams. It seems to be one of the few venues where adults readily follow youth leaders without question. More irony.

 

SA