Laser Tag Prohibited??

[packsaddle]

No, that is not what is being communicated. I also disagree with the laser tag ban but I do recognize it. What it means is that the troop cannot do it as a troop outing or part of a BSA-troop-oriented activity. If you want to organize a birthday party for your son you are free to do this any way you decide to and you are free to invite anyone you want. If they happen to be Boy Scouts that is not relevant.

As long as the true basis for the outing is the celebration of your son's birthday, it wouldn't matter if the entire troop, among others, attended and played laser tag. The outing would be on your nickel and at your risk, not BSA's or the CO's.

 

However, there is a distinction here. If you USE the birthday as a way to rationalize breaking a BSA rule, then you are engaging in a deception and not only will you know this but it will set a poor example for the boys. I think this was also the point that Eagle732 was making.

 

Edited part: typo(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[Eagle92]

In addition to not following the Scout law and liability issues, you can have your membership revoked. There was an incident a few years back in my council in which a leader did not follow G2SS guidelines and an accident occured. BSA insurance would not cover the event, don't know if it was the accident or liability insurance, and eventually the leader was banned permanently from Scouting, i.e. he's listed in the black books at national now. He did sue to be reinstated, and was reinstated while the court case occured, and lost the case. This was all before the Dale SCOTUS decision.

 

But let's get back to the Scout Law. What are we teaching our scouts if we do the "it's an unofficial activity?" Wouldn't a better way to handle with the scouts is have them do some research on the matter, and contact national with their info and try to get the policy repealed? Wouldn't that be teaching a bit of citizenship?(This message has been edited by eagle92)

[John-in-KC]

Here are my thoughts:

 

If Billy, who happens to be the PL of the Owls, calls his friends in the patrol and says "Let's go to LazerTag (or PaintBall Field) on Saturday," and they get a couple Dads to take them ... it's a bunch of kids who are friends, who share Scouting, who are doing it outside of Scouting. They're doing this on their own, and they/families are taking responsibility.

 

OTOH...

 

If the PLC says "Let's go to LaserTag instead of Troop meeting 2 weeks from now. Do not wear uniforms. We will not be doing any Troop business that night; it's "not a Troop meeting." ... then Mr Scoutmaster needs to kick in the Scout Law on Trustworthy, Loyal, and Obedient.

[highcountry]

I just had paintball and lazer tag come up in a couple of scouts board of reviews last night. (Some of the same scouts who come to my house to hang out with my kids and play airsoft on their own time). I'm offering the main proppnent of this the challenge of organizing the lazer tag or paintball activity. He know that this is to be done without using scout funds, without getting a discount based on any relation to troop and BSA, and to organize it on his own via email and phone calls, no sign up sheet at meetings. It will not be a substitute for another troop activity or meeting. He can call whomever he wishes to invite, all scouts, some scouts and some non scouts. This way they get to do the activity and there is no worry about considering BSA's rules over this matter. Easy as that. It has no relation to scouts, BSA has no jurisdiction on any BSA member's personal life outside scouting (Unless they are found to be a felon or child abuser or soime other considerable situation).

[John-in-KC]

Highcountry,

 

That to me is pretty much the proper approach.

[scoutingagain]

I noted this in one of the earlier Laser Tag threads, but we had the same issue come up for paint ball several years ago. We handled it the same way High Country did. If the boys wanted to do paint ball, and do it as a non-scout function that was fine, but they would get no assistance in organizing the event from adult scouters and could not do any planning or organizing at meetings. Had to be completely offline.

 

Turned out to be probably the most boy led activity they ever engaged in.

 

This is not circumventing the rules. This is a bunch of guys doing something they like to do that has nothing to do with scouting or the scout unit.

 

SA

 

 

[Beavah]

Yah, one of da things I've noticed is that da folks who are plugged into various online communities like this one are the only folks who are either aware of the lasertag/paintball/toy gun bans or actually take 'em seriously. Outside of our small groups, these activities are goin' on regularly.

 

Last month I was browsin' around cub pack websites in our council and a neighborin' council. Believe it or not, almost every single pack calendar which was posted (not all of 'em posted calendars for public view) listed a lasertag event. Many added other "simulated firearm" activities like squirt gun wars.

 

Da rank and file aren't dumb, they're makin' their own choices about safety and values, and nobody has any interest in enforcin' this stuff. To my mind, we just look foolish raisin' this as an issue. And the more we look foolish, the less likely folks are goin' to pay attention when we have real advice about safety and program. I can't be effective talkin' to a troop to encourage trainin' or better use of advancement if their first reaction is "Oh, no, here comes that anti-gun idiot who thinks laser tag is the same as promoting Columbine."

 

Beavah

 

[nolesrule]

Beavah, that's all fine and dandy until someone gets hurt and afterward the parent (or worse, a personal injury lawyer) discovers that the activity never should have been run in the first place.

 

What really bothers me with this discussion is the double standard. No one has a problem with the G2SS when it says certain waterfront activities for cub scouts can only be done at district or council-wide events. There could be 10 fully trained safety personnel and only 2 scouts involved, we all still say you can't do it. But if its a ban on lasertag or paintball, all of a sudden it becomes a "who cares about the G2SS? It's not a dangerous activity."

 

Not everything in the G2SS is about preventing physical injury. Some of it is an organizational stance against combat-like activity (whether with weapons, simulated weapons or hand-to-hand).(This message has been edited by nolesrule)

[Lisabob]

I dunno Beavah, I think you have some sample selection issues. Most of the troops in my district are aware of the policy. I know this because I've had conversations with most of the scoutmasters about it at one point or another (comes up at RT from time to time). Most of them also follow it. In my son's troop, the overwhelming majority of leaders know about these rules through basic leader training. Many of them think it is a bit silly, but BSA rules are BSA rules and we follow them when we are running a BSA program. The boys are also aware of these rules.

 

 

Now I am willing to believe that, if any group is unlikely to be aware of BSA policy, it is probably going to be cub leaders and not troop leaders. Why? Because there's a much higher adult turnover rate and a lot more untrained parents/leaders who are also brand new to scouting at the cub level in comparison to the troop level.

 

But surely there is some middle ground between ignoring the policy completely and playing the role of "that anti-gun idiot who thinks laser tag is the same as promoting Columbine." In your role as a unit commissioner, if you can't strike a balance then you might need to work on your communication skills (could be that furry northern accent of yours is getting in the way).

[highcountry]

The boy led comments are spot on, I hadn't mentioned it to keep my response shorter, but it is another reason I like to run things like bike rides, skiing, paintball etc this way. We are getting improved boy led situation on planning and running troop meetings, and campouts but hav e along way to go. When a scout is intrinsicly interested in running an additional special activity, the self motivation to plan, organize, promote and run the activity teaches him a lot, even if he is running an event outside the troop, what he learns benefits him and the troop whne he is involved in helping plan meetings and campouts later on.

[fgoodwin]

I was once UC for a troop, in which the PLC had planned a laser tag outing (the announcement was right there in the Scribe-produced troop newsletter).

 

I pulled the COR aside and let him know that laser-tag was not an authorized Scouting activity, and pointed him to the G2SS. He wasn't happy about it, but he announced at the following week's troop meeting that the PLC would have to schedule a different event. They weren't happy either, but they complied.

 

I don't know if I did the right thing -- I'm no longer their UC but not because of that incident.

[Beavah]

Yah, I agree with highcountry and like his idea, eh? Just encourage the youth to run the event on their own. It's a nice approach, eh? Perhaps da best for da circumstances. They get all the benefits of youth leadership and scouting without doin' scouting!

 

But wait a minute... is that what we really want?

 

And we wonder why they leave.

 

Nuthin' wrong with my communications skills there Lisabob. Those ain't my units. I learned years ago that I work better with da Boy Scout and Venturing units, so that's who I spend my time with. Got another fellow who coordinates cub stuff. Frankly, I don't think much of commishes who try to help all three programs. They're way too different to be able to do a good job that way.

 

Communicatin' is one thing, choosin' battles is another. Can't say the squirtgun fight is a battle I choose to fight. My rule is that if yeh can't say it with a straight face, it's best left unsaid. And I've stood next to DDs, FD's and SE's who have similarly chosen not to deal with it. Since it isn't a safety issue and it's at best a peripheral program issue, it just ain't worth spendin' time on.

 

At least one of da local lasertag spots is also a good FOS contributor. And a nice family who doesn't really deserve bein' boycotted by us.

 

Beavah

 

[Lisabob]

It isn't a boycott. Nobody is telling scouts that they cannot participate in those activities OUTSIDE of scouting. No point in using such loaded language, Beavah.

[Beavah]

Da language was deliberate, eh?

 

We are tellin' kids and families that it's an unsafe activity for their kids to participate in. That if their kids go to such a thing they'll be personally exposed to unusual legal risk.

 

That's worse than a boycott, eh? It's defamation. Both unethical and dishonest.

 

To my mind, that's the principle reason why these prohibitions are bad, eh? We do real harm to good people by spreadin' false information.

 

Beavah

 

 

[nolesrule]

Who's telling them it's unsafe?

 

I thought it was banned because it was considered an inappropriate scouting activity. The book may be primarily about safety (and risk management), but it's also the BSA's reference for what is and isn't an activity appropriate for scouting.

 

If it was really about safety, the ban would be limited to just pointing at living targets, rather than also including a ban on non-living targets that are representative of human (you know, like a head and torso paper target you often see at gun ranges depicted on television). Afterall, shooting at a human-shaped paper target is just as safe (or just as dangerous) as shooting at a round target.(This message has been edited by nolesrule)