A new one on flag retirements

[Gold Winger]

For his Eagle project, one of our scouts collected flags for retirement. He figured that he'd get 20 or 30 but wound up with hundreds. The ceremony started out very solemn, with each and every flag given individual honors. After about four hours of flag burning, around 10 PM, they started doing a few at a time. I don't remember the number but if they did too many, the fire was in danger of smothering. Around midnight, the whole event was shut down, the fire burned out and the remaining flags were saved for a another day.

[John-in-KC]

Gunny,

 

One of our Scout Camps does Flag Retirement as part of a campfire for Cub Scouts. Because of how we structure the ceremony, we can burn anywhere from 3-10 a ceremony.

 

In fact, our OA Lodge did just what you suggested, and even went above and beyond: They had someone standing and saluting constantly the whole time.

 

I think the operative words are "with dignity."

[crazykat7611]

I'm new to this forum, but in reference to the flag retirement issue at hand, I'm also a member of a veteran's organization that does this type of ceremony and also a Girl Scout Leader that does these, and from one I know there is nothing anywhere that I have seen about having to fly the flag on the day of retirement. I have asked a few people from that organization and they know nothing about it either. I hope that I haven't stepped on anyones toes by saying this.

[Gold Winger]

It would be hard to step on our toes here.

[Stosh]

If the flag is fly-able, we as a curtesy, not a requirement, take the flag to a pole, run it up one last time, salute, pledge, bring it back down, fold and then take to the ceremony for burning.

 

The rationale for this process is personal to me. If by some off chance we receive a flag that has never been flown, it at least gets one chance to fly. Had this flag been only used as a coffin pall and harmed in storage for some reason, it would have been a flag that never had a chance to fly free. To insure this, each flag is flown, saluted, and pledged before being destroyed.

 

Like most traditions, they offer meaning of some, confusion to others, and nothing to still others. But for the few that the tradition is important, it is part of that respect part of the retirement ceremony.

 

Maybe deep back in history, the tradition being mocked as a myth on the forum once held some respectful tradition along the way. Somehow it is a little close to the "tradition" that I use.

 

Who knows? I for one find it objectionable to cut the flag up before destroying it. Cutting it up as a form of destruction of the flag bothers me. Burning rags afterwards holds no importance to me at all.

 

Stosh

[Pack212Scouter]

Stosh, I am with you there. I personally prefer not to cut up a flag. It seems somehow disrespectful to me. That is a personal viewpoint though, and there is nothing against it.

[John-in-KC]

Years and years ago, from a retirement ceremony I saw as a Scout, the logic in cutting the field from the stripes was the flag was no more, but rather two pieces of cloth needing to be destroyed.

 

Again, nothing required.

[Gunny2862]

Thanks folks for the feedback!

I concur with all of the above and insist on the dignity of the proceedings even/especially when multiple flags will be retired.

The time between flags I mentioned was largely based on the amount of time it takes a normal household sized flag to burn, I personally don't like to have more than one burning "at the same time".

 

John, I know a ceremony like the one you mention and the reason given(in the version I know it is spoken) is as you state to deconstruct the flag so that it is clear that no disrespect is intended as the material is burned because it is no longer a flag.

I have used it for single retirements but think it is way overkill for multiples.

[epalmer84]

For a public ceremony, keep it short. Folks who are standing for twenty minutes are not going to be thinking about the flag.

 

Ed

[Be_Prepared]

As I mentioned on another thread, the summer camp that I am associated with receives hundreds of flags per year for retirement, usually approaching 1000 each summer. We have a weekly ceremony, where one flag is cut and placed on the fire. The cutting is a practical matter - due to the size of the flag used. The flag is cut into 4ths - with the union going on last. Again, the main reason for cutting is just that the large garrison flags are hard to handle. We retire a few smaller flags as well, but they are placed on the fire folded.

 

A few times during the summer, the staff retires large quantities after the regular ceremony. A good point, mentioned earlier, is the length. With people standing - retiring too many at once pushes the ceremony to too long.

[Gunny2862]

True Ed,

the length of the ceremony doesn't impart solemnity nor dignity and can impede peoples active participation while leading to the "I'm not going to one of those, again." syndrome. I'm all for keeping the public ceremony short.

[jtswestark]

Weve done these a number of times, usually end up with hundreds to retire. The cloth ones burn well, but slow, and the nylon smolder and melt if the fire isn't really hot. The nylons do take forever as well. One year the SPL wrote up a program and they cut a huge one all into pieces. It was nylon and as they put the strips on the fire each smoldered and the smoke started engulfing them and the first three rows of Cubs... by the time they were done with the one and through their script they were black as night and coughing all over the place! Oh what a wonderful mess!

 

Anymore we prepare by going through and folding them as best we can. Then place them on the fire folded one, two, or three at a time. Too many will smother the fire; have had more than one fire before, too. We try to do it typically with a Pack, we have each Cub that wants one place it on the fire. Recently the boys keep asking me to do the talking. I come from a family that is not necessarily gung hoe military, but most of us men have done at least a few years in the service of our country. So it means something maybe a little more to me when we do these. The first few times I nervously used written scripts, but they seemed too canned. So any more I just wing it talking about the history of flags, what the different parts indicate, what some of the urban legends are, talk about the grommets I deliver in a sober and monotone delivery, with plenty of breaks and pauses in between sentences. I never imagined I could keep a group of Cubs and Webelos attention for so long! But you cant stretch it out too long, need to pick up on folks getting fidgety and start winding it down. Then you can excuse the bulk of the folks while the older and really interested guys finish placing the flags on the flames. You need to watch it closely, the first time they start getting lazy or start heaving them on the fire were done. Stop it and save the rest for another time. Thats when someone gets burned or nearly as bad, start being disrespectful to our American Flag. I wont tolerate that, and the older guys usually know that and keep things in line. In the morning the older guys do dig out all the remnants to burn again. Sometimes theyve washed up the grommets and given them to the Cubs as a good luck keepsake. Some end up on their patrol or den flags.

 

Nothing spectacular, nothing elaborate, keep it simple and keep it respectful. We always have too many to get done and that explains why we respectfully move it along. Our guys really do like retiring them. In fact they just asked me about doing it again this winter. Its an important part of teaching citizenship, not just about our flag, but a great opportunity to talk about the great country we live in. Especially during a time that we need to be talking about such things.

 

A pet peeve - we 'retire flags', not 'burn flags'; whole different connotation.

 

Jack

[Flyingfish]

Isn't interesting how flag retirements take on a religious style fervor? It's like having two Rabbi's argue about when the sun really sets to begin the sabbath. It sets when it sets.

 

We have developed this nice little way of disposing of a flag while giving the boys something to think about. Why continue to make it more and more "legalistic"?