Scout Law

[Docrwm]

I am writing this and will then be removing myself from participation on this forum. So, many may want to ignore this post, or worse. They have that right - obviously.

 

First, I've gotten several back channel emails that have been.....well.....a bit high and mighty. Basically, each of them has implied that since I have admitted to being new to Adult Scouting my views are not worth much. None has offered any, ANY, reasoning to support their positions other than their own self-proclaimed expertise based on their claims to having many years, held various posts, etc.

 

I'm a reasonably well established professional in my own profession. I can read a manual, listen to a lecture, and ask my own questions. When I have done so, from people I know to be in authority, have read the actual manuals, and formed my own positions I am not merely going to nod like a small child and say "Yes, Sir. Thank you, Sir." whenever anyone asserts that they know better. That is what happens here over, and over, and over again. Seldom do people here offer actual citations, references, or other access via links or quotes to materials that support their assertions. I do when I can. I've also been wrong, and have admitted such here and apologized. However, all too often I see posts that belittle other Scouters instead of trying to educate, inform, and uplift. I see posts that are snide, superior, and just unScout-like.

 

For example, one post stated that since I had "confessed" to having just been appointed.... (BTW, go read my posts, I never claimed to hold that position - merely to have received the training). Now, in my world to accuse someone of confessing implies rather strongly that they have done something wrong. How is acknowledging openly that I'm new something that I could "confess". Before you write to say that's petty - its an example of a pattern I have seen here with various posters. One example an infestation does not make - but, it sure should make one stop and look to see if its isolated or not.

 

I've obviously walked into some ongoing in-fights. Thats genuinely sad in a forum that's supposed to be about networking for Scouters to improve programming for Scouts. When I agree with someone that actually cites BSA published positions, ones that are precisely consistent with what I was just trained by those I KNOW to be in authority, and ones that I can go and confirm - I am accused of blindly, and by implication stupidly, agreeing with someone who is ....well things I won't honor by repeating. So, it would seem that I am incapable of being a person of good will who has formed their own opinions because I either disagree with the poster or agree with their nemesis (or both)?!?!

 

I'm sorry but I thought I had joined a forum of adult Scouters. Men of good will can hold differing opinions and still be good people and worthy of respect. I have seen many, many incidents where that is just not the case here on this forum.

 

Second, I have said on two different fora here that secrecy seems to be something still tolerated and even encouraged by some here for official BSA activities. I stand by my conclusion based on reading hundreds of threads here over the past month. I can not change anyones position but perhaps I can open some eyes to the fact that this still occurs here. If an adult Scouter asks about a specific part of an official activity of BSA or any of its units they have the right to expect an open, honest, direct, and complete answer. All too often, people here seem comfortable with evasive, partial, or even less than honest answers to such questions. I should not need to receive back-channel descriptions of official BSA sponsored activities.

 

Finally, pseudonyms are nice and all but they make things difficult. I have had several people claim all sorts of BSA "authority" whose posts and answers do not correspond to what I read in official BSA sources or to what I was taught by people I KNOW to be in genuine BSA posts of authority. That makes me question the honesty of those claiming such positions because their statements are at odds with what I know to be true.

 

Thank you for hosting this forum. I hope that when I check in to read posts from time to time that I will see a place that I can feel comfortable participating in. For now, I will direct my efforts to improving the operations of my Pack and my District and wish all of you the very best in creating the most interesting and effective Scouting programs possible!

 

YIS,

 

-Robert

[Bob White]

Doc,

I apologize that I was unable to give you a direct anser regarding the Game of life. Pleaswe understandt that it has no reflection on the openess policy of the BSA (which by the way says that there will be no secret organizations within the BSA and that all activities of the BSA are open to parents).

 

If I answered your question it would be removed by a forum Moderator based on his personal judgement and not based on any policy of the BSA.

 

 

Since this is a private sight not operated by the BSA i do not know how you could hold tat against the program?

 

I am sorry you are chossing to leave, I t was nice to have another person on the site who cared enough about the program to try to learn and follow it,.

 

Happy Scouting

BW

[jtswestark]

Very well said Doc, Im sorry to see you go. You hit it right on the head. I don't post much here but lurk a lot to learn what I can to make my troop function better. Unfortunately, it takes a great effort to skim though the unnecessary crap to weed out the good things posted here. They are there, but very hidden. A lot of the self-anointed NO-it-alls (intentionally misspelled) seem to have plenty of time to keep posting here. I wonder when the last time much or any of their so-called knowledge was put to real use with real Scouts on a real campout or at a real meeting. Its a shame that offering suggestions and ideas to help others gets shot down by others so quickly and viciously.

 

Those that continue to post immature and cheap shots through anonymity do no one any good. There are many that here that obviously are ashamed of what they post, otherwise they wouldn't be hiding behind it. It's a shame some of you continue to do so, some even have been at it for many years. I'm saddened to see so called Scouters behaving like this.

 

Jack Smith,

Eagle Scout, Vigil Honor, OA Advisor, Westark District Gadfly

Scoutmaster for Troop 935

www.Troop935.com

Buckeye Council, Ohio

 

 

[BadenP]

Sorry you have made the decision Doc, I suggest you tough it out a little longer and get to know the people here better. Since you stated that you are a psychologist I think you might be acting a little too sensitive and misconstruing what others have said. You see this forum is kind of like "THE GAME OF LIFE" or maybe Survivor, lol especially with Bob along for the ride. Don't take anything too seriously have fun, argue, debate but remember no one person here is a true expert on anything, even though we have one self proclaimed expert, we are all here to learn, help out when we can, and have a good time. So go with the flow and you will have a good time.

[OneHour]

... ah ... doc ... you are correct! Sometimes, you have to have thick skin or at least some of those duck feathers on you! If I and a few others who posted here since 2003 or earlier let every comment chaps our hides, then we would have been gone a long time ago; as a matter of fact, we have. Bob White left at least 3 times that I can think of.

 

It's all words that folks are typing. If you let your emotion takes over then you have lost, just as I have. This forum has a lot to offer. You just have to read it with a set of filtered lens! Take what you need and leave what you want so that others can benefit.

 

See you down the scouting trails!

 

1Hour

[Beavah]

Now, in my world to accuse someone of confessing implies rather strongly that they have done something wrong.

 

So the many people who confess a faith in Jesus Christ are all admitting to doing something wrong? I don't think so. I suspect da word has a variety of meanings, not all of 'em bad. How we look at other people, whether we choose to read their writing in a bad/judgmental way or in a positive light, reflects on the reader as much or more than da writer, eh?

 

In internet forums, where there are no tone of voice cues, no facial cues beyond simply smillie conventions , it's important to read imagining folks are fellow scouters around a campfire. Different folks have their own styles of speakin', eh? Some even have adorable accents. Discussions can be heated at times, but everybody's in da same game of servin' kids. Though I worry a bit at times about some of our characters leadin' new folks afield (and others worry about that in my posts), I've found it rare that anyone who is engaged in Scouting is not a friend.

 

So don't go away, Docrwm, but lurk instead for a bit. That's good advice for any online forum. Get to know da characters, learn the lingo. Just like in your profession or in scouting, there's getting a degree and then there's learning da practice. The books and classes for a degree are important, but they don't take away from the need to learn the practice.

 

If pseudonyms bug yeh, there are other online Scouting email lists and forums that require actual names. I encourage yeh to check those out. Here's da current list of USSSP net resources (the NFP lists, unlike this for-profit forum):

 

http://usscouts.org/netresources/netresources5.asp

 

Go visit some of those. I reckon you'll find da same characters, the same squabbles, the same sort of friends and fellow scouters. Yah, and they also have a few people who mistake challengin' a person's ideas with challengin' a person, as both reader and writer. A signature doesn't change that dynamic much, IMO, but it does lead to some additional SPAM. You should judge for yourself.

 

Continued good luck to you in your journey, and good fortune in your service to youth.

 

Beavah(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[printman31]

Doc,

I can't say I know your current situation or why you're choosing to not communicate with persons on this forum. But let me clue you in a one little fact. I've been on this net for about 13 years now. Have done many forum postings & too many chat rooms. This forum is mild in comparison to the majority of forums on the net.Hit some of the religous chat rooms on yahoo.See what those people go through everyday from the many atheist there only to torment them. Check out the numerous fishing & hunting forums out here. Watch how these so called sportsman battle each other in a war of one upsmanship for fishing photos. My point being that there are many places that are much worse than this place. But more importantly, Not a single one of us posting here has any bearing on your life or how you relate with your current BSA position. So take what any of us say with a grain of salt.

[ASM59]

I hear you Doc... I have also made the decision to ignore the Scouter Forums for a while; old habits die hard, so here I am. I am not as frequent of a poster as others here, but have had some extra time lately and have been able to do more posting than usual. I have been met with what I consider un-Scout-like responses too. I have received scathing personal messages for trying to defend myself. I feel like I am supposed to bow to the superior wisdom of others and never counter them with what I believe or what Ive read or what I know from experience.

 

Like you said, I feel like I accidentally walked into the middle of a fight and someone thinks that I want to take sides.

 

When I started posting recently, I did not realize the problems that had developed between certain members on the Forums. I dont understand why adults have to come to the place of behaving like this. So, as was pointed out to me, I dont have to stay, I dont have to read, and I dont have to reply. So thats where I am. At the very least, Ill be taking a break from posting on the Forums for a while.

 

ASM59

 

[Eamonn]

This site along with the Forum does have a lot more information and "Stuff".

If and when I need the "Book Answer" I will try and find it on the BSA web site, in a BSA Publication and every now and then I'll either ask someone from the forum where I can find it via PM, or I'll post "Where can I find such and such ?"

 

At the bottom of the page it states:

"This is a private community provided by SCOUTER Network

and reserved for Scouting related discussions."

If the only thing we did in the forum was tell each other where the book answer could be found, I think many of us would get a lot better using the search engine on the BSA web site.

We do spend a lot of time discussing things that might not be covered in any BSA publication or how maybe we interpret what is stated in these publications.

Sure there are times when conversations don't remain on topic, there are times when not everyone agrees.

Of course we all hope that even when we stick our neck out or even when we are wrong, that we will come away unharmed and not beaten to a pulp.

This doesn't always happen. Much as I hate to admit it there have been times when I look back that I have not acted in the most Scout-like way. I have allowed something (A bad day, or a personal prejudice.) Get in my way.

Sure there have been times when I have read what someone has posted and I have allowed this to upset me or get up my nose.

I have read something where someone has to my mind gone after me and I have gone after them.

Many times I will try and second guess who is going to post what on a certain topic. A lot of times I'm not right, but sometimes I am.

There are some topics that I know some other forum members and I don't agree on and chances are that we never will. Most times,unless I'm feeling really cranky?? I'm willing to just let it go.

I do think that most Forum members do try and do their best in the forum to make it seem as if they are in line with the Scout Law.

Some have said that this forum is like a bunch of Scouter's sitting around a camp fire. I tend to see it more like the "Parking Lot Meeting" that seems to follow most adult Scout meetings. While I don't think that anyone is trying to set themselves up as being in any way superior, some of us (Me!) do at times fall back stating our past experiences as a way of maybe giving some sort of credibility to validate what we are posting.

No one is forcing me to participate in this forum and I can take or leave any and all advise that might be offered.

At the end of the day I think what I get out of my participating is the opportunity to look at things in a different light and give the little gray cells a bit of a work out.

I'd like to think that maybe every now and then something that I have posted has been of some help to someone. I also hope that my good days outnumber my bad and cranky days.

As to the Scout Law?

Like everyone else the Scout Law to me is a work in progress. At times I'm painfully aware that my best is better on some days than others.

Eamonn.

 

[Rythos]

As I have remarked on several occasions recently, no matter how much knowledge or experience you have (and I'm forced to take people on an internet forum at their word about their experience) if you communicate with people in what is perceived as a hostile or adversarial way you are more likely to turn people off of scouting rather than teach them anything.

 

Just because you have a high post count, experience, and a stack of BSA manuals doesn't mean you actually know how to talk to people, or lead for that matter.

 

Sorry to see you go Doc, but I expect that you are not the first, nor the last one to leave after receiving the four star treatment some members of the Scouter.com community are so skilled and experienced passing along to the other users.

 

Ry

 

[Bob White]

If you think that Doc left because of me that would be an error based on the PMs I have recieved for Doc. He did what I have done. He took the training read the manual and learned the information. I know, shame on us both for reading.

 

If you come to a forum for 2000 personal opinions that's fine, that's your personal choice. But when looking to deliver a program you would think one would want to know what the program was and how to use it.

 

I am curious, How many posters would stop a stranger on the street and ask for an opinion on how they should lead a scout program? Anyone? And yet some of you do that all the time on the Internet.

 

Why would so many people works so hard to offer you BSA training and resources to help you have a successful scouting program is all you needed to do was ask a few strangers and follow whatever they tell you to do?

 

Think of the time and expense that could be saved if that actually worked.

 

I have never said "do what I say because I used to be a professional", I have never said "do what I say because I have a cute accent", I have never said "do what I say because I am right."

 

I, and a few others, have said "here is what the BSA says the BSA program is. If you follow it it you will have a better Scouting progran for youth" AND "Here is what the rules are, to ignore them is wrong."

 

Not based on personal opinion, not based on personal credentials, but using the BSA as the source of information on the BSA programs.

 

Thats all Doc did and look how he was treated. He did not leave because of anything I did.

 

Several posters here do not know or do not want to know what the BSA program is. They want to do what they want to do, and they get uncomfortable when that is contrasted with the contents of BSA training and resources.

 

 

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Docrwm]

I am replying, as I said I was going to continue to read here, for 2 reasons: all the PMs I have gotten and some apparent mistaken conclusions. So I will try to clarify in an effort to not foster further dissent here.

 

First, thank you for the PMs folks. As I said to most, I have two new District projects that may just eat up a substantial portion of my hour a week for scouting.

 

Second, many PMs put the blame for my leaving on Bob White. Nothing could be further from the truth. His responses to me have been uniformly polite, respectful, and in keeping with what I see as the "Scout Spirit". When he and I have disagreed he has asked me to clarify my statements, not attacked me either directly or indirectly. His summary posted here is completely accurate from my perspective.

 

The Scouters whose behavior has soured me on this forum are the ones that consistently attack him, and ANYONE who dares agree with him (knowingly or unknowingly). There are loads of good folks here and yes, as the Mod stated, if all I had wanted was to read the manuals I could do so on my own (have-thanks). I thought that part of Scouting was the comradery? However, being told one is ignorant, stupid, or not entitled to an opinion is completely at odds with what I anticipated in a group of Scouters. As for others saying that things are worse elsewhere and to toughen up - Wow, that's like saying that having herpes isn't so bad, it could be worse. You've still got a disease that will impact your entire life. Add to that the fact that of all places one made up of volunteers to an organization devoted to teaching character to youth should be the last place where issues of character in the adults is an ongoing event and it gets a bit surreal, IMHO.

 

Sorry to barge in again, but I felt that the misinformation could lead to further problems.

 

YiS,

 

-Robert

[scoutldr]

It's not surprising that some still miss the point by a country mile. "2000 opinions?"...that's what a "Forum" is for. If I want official BSA party line rhetoric, I call my Unit Commissioner or DE. This is NOT an official BSA site...it's a site for Scouters to cuss and discuss issues, and it works quite nicely, thanks, as long as we play nice. If all we wanted was quotes from training manuals and rule books, all we would need is "www.askbobwhite.com", and the rest of us could spend our time elsewhere.

[Eamonn]

I for one am thankful that we do have a diverse group in the forum.

There are a couple of people that I rarely if ever agree with, there are others whom I like and admire.

When I can't find what I'm looking for on the BSA site or I'm too lazy to find the right book, I'm glad that we have FScouter and Bob White.

I'd be willing to bet that new forum members find a lot more use in the resources that they post than my normal ramblings.

That doesn't mean that they are always right or that I always agree with them. It doesn't mean I'm going to stop my ramblings!!

Eamonn

(Is my English accent cute?)(This message has been edited by Eamonn)

[printman31]

Let's sum this all up real fast & real easy.

This forum has a very useful option. It's called the ignore user function. It's not a complex tool to use.It's actually quite simple to use.If used properly.There shouldn't be anyone leaving the forum because they don't like what someone else says.