Flag Ceremony Question

[PeteM]

I was at a camporee this past weekend and on Saturday, before the opening ceremonies got under way, the camporee director had a scheduled SPL meeting to go over the camporee events, as well as give out some general camporee information. When my spl got back to camp, he said that the camporee director said that due to the weather (It was raining very heavily as well as a thunderstorm going on), that the morning flag ceremony and opening ceremonies were being canceled. I told the SPL that we were going to the parade grounds anyway. When we got there, there were about 5 other troops present and we waited for the camporee director to get there. When he got there, he said that flags were canceled due to the weather, that he didn't want anyone trying to put up flags onto a pole in the middle of a thunderstorm. He also said that this info was given to the SPL's at their meeting earlier that morning.Was he correct in making the statement that you don't put up flag when there is a rainstorm going on?

 

What do you all think?

 

Pete

[Gold Winger]

I'm not famous for my common sense but let's apply some here . . . . if there's a thunderstorm what the heck were you doing out in the open? What sense would it make to have Scouts out in the rain, fussing with a big metal pole waiting for lightning to hit it?

 

It is not a violation of flag protocol to not fly it in inclement weather.

 

If the SPL said that the ceremonies were canceled, why did you go?

[scottmphoto]

When I was a young Scout, we were taught that it was disrespectful to fly a flag in the rain and it was not allowed. I'm sure that the regulations have changed in the last 25 years since then as I see flags up all over my hometown when it is raining.

I think that someone that can quote the regulations needs to post on this topic but for me... it's wrong to do so.

 

 

 

[nolesrule]

All-weather flags (read: nylon) can be flown in inclement weather, but that isn't pertinent to the discussion.

 

Holding a flag raising or lowering in the middle of a storm with the potential for lightning? That would be irresponsible. You wouldn't let your boys go swimming in a thunderstorm would you? If there is lightning, you should be taking the proper safety precautions, and that includes being far away from a tall metal pole.

 

The camporee director did the right thing, putting safety first. The people who ignored him and showed up anyway did not.

[PeteM]

The flag poles were wood.

 

We thought that if it was being cancelled, that someone would have come around to tell us.

 

I can see that we were wrong (translate that as STUPID) in going.

 

(This message has been edited by PeteM)

[shortridge]

"We thought that if it was being cancelled, that someone would have come around to tell us."

 

Sorry, I'm confused. Didn't you say that the SPL was told the ceremonies were canceled?

 

"When my spl got back to camp, he said that the camporee director said that due to the weather (It was raining very heavily as well as a thunderstorm going on), that the morning flag ceremony and opening ceremonies were being canceled."

 

Yep, there it is.

 

"I told the SPL that we were going to the parade grounds anyway."

 

So the SPL's statement wasn't authoritative enough for you? Did you want to hear it from another adult?

 

And you disagreed with the camporee director's decision... why, exactly?

[nolesrule]

Someone did tell you. Your SPL. From information he received directly from the camporee director at the SPL meeting. Are you saying you didn't believe your SPL?

 

Ok, so it was a wooden pole and not metal. It still doesn't matter. As someone who lives in the thunderstorm capital of North America, I can tell you right now that a wooden flag pole is still a lightning rod. And even worse, a wooden pole could explode if hit with lightning because the lightning would instantly boil any moisture in the wood, causing the steam to rapidly expand in the pockets of the wood.

 

EDIT: shortridge hit the nail right on the head.(This message has been edited by nolesrule)

[printman31]

It doesn't matter that the flag pole was made of wood. Trees get struck by lightening all the time. Lightening will attract to the highest point in an area. Which is why they say if you're in an open field during a storm to lay flat.In this particular instance.Common sense was the order of the day. Fortunately it prevailed that day. Pete you might want to consider taking the online weather hazzard course offered on the BSA website.

 

Now I have 1 question for you Pete.

Do you know if the flag was raised after the storm passed? I'm guessing it was.

 

http://www.scouting.org/Applications/MyScoutingFull.aspx

[eagle77]

I think what bothers me even more is that 5 other troops thought nothing of it and took their troops to this ceremony too. I don't need no weather training, this is a common sense type thing. These parents are trusting you and other adults to make good firm decisions with their most prised pocession, their children. Time to really sit back and think about this. What would you do if it was just a troop camp out?

[Gunny2862]

I understand wanting to fly the flag at every possible opportunity.

 

If the SPL is going to go to an SPL meeting, come back with info/directions from the Event Director then unless the scoop violates G2SS or other Scouting Guidleines then why aren't you listening to the directions he gives when he comes back? What was the point of his going to the meeting in the first place?

 

But, if the Scoutmaster had gone to a Scoutmasters meeting with the Event Director, would the Troop still have gone to raise the flag after being told that that activity had been canceled/postponed until the storm passed?

If they would then: 1) It's good that you have the courage of your convictions. 2) It's bad that you don't follow the directions given by the Event Director. They sometimes have reasons for certain directions they give that may not be apparent and that they don't lengthen the meeting by explaining the reasons behind every individual proclamation. 3) As has been noted above there are many bad outcomes possible for trying to raise a flag in inclement weather.

 

Frankly, we certainly wouldn't put one up and unless we were departing we wouldn't pull down a flag that was already flying under the conditions described unless it was our flag, we were departing the area, the Event Director told us he wouldn't pull it before he left and send it to us or the Council office, and in that case an adult of the Troop would pull it, and quickly would it come down.

[ScoutNut]

"Which is why they say if you're in an open field during a storm to lay flat."

 

Actually, you are supposed to get out of an open field as soon as you hear thunder. If you are caught outside, with no access to a safe building or vehicle, and as an absoultly last resort, you should crouch down on your feet, or sit down on the ground. The point is to make yourself as small as possible, with as little contact with the ground as possible.

 

 

[CA_Scouter]

It sounds as if there are 5+ troops here who don't listen to their SPL.

 

The bad thing here is that these SPL's have been taught that they have no real authority and they are in effect, figureheads for the adult leadership.

 

Its always a challenge for the adult leadership to step back into the shadows - its a constant challenge for me as well. However, if there is no safety issue involved, then ya gotta let 'em lead!

 

 

 

 

 

 

[OldGrayOwl]

I was the Event Director of the Camporee, and other than that and other weather related delays, the event went along very well.

 

OGO

[OldGrayOwl]

PeteM,

 

What troop are you with?

Sure would like to meet another Scouter.com person.

Please PM me,

Thanks

[Eagle1982]

It would be nice to be able to trust your SPL eh?

 

Safety first, and agree with the camp director or not, you were informed, and a authority of the camp made the decision. What you did was send a message that you don't trust your SPL, that you don't trust the system.